Written by Christopher Kelly
March 25, 2016
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Christopher: Hello and welcome to the Nourish Balance Thrive podcast. My name is Christopher Kelly and today I'm joined by Dr. Mario Roxas. Hi, Mario.
Mario: Hi there, Christopher.
Christopher: Well, thank you so much for your time. I know you're extremely busy and I'm very, very grateful to have you on today. For everybody listening, Mario is a naturopathic doctor and a Director of Research at Thorne Supplements. So, we're going to talk about today supplementation. Why don't we start asking how you became interested in supplements in the first place?
Mario: Well, my interest into the field of nutritional supplements and the use in basically overall naturopathic care happened while I was a resident, going through my residency program at the National College of Naturopathic Medicine. I had the opportunity of working with nutritional supplement company, a local nutritional supplement company that was involved with -- I was familiar with them in our clinic. We would work with patients.
And so through that kind of avenue, it got me interested in learning a little bit more about the industry itself. So I worked as one of their technical advisers for a while and became their director of technical services and medical research and product development and then that just opened doors along the way to eventually be with Thorne Research. And I've really appreciated my time with Thorne Research and the level of quality and attention to detail and commitment that they have to providing quality supplements and effective nutritional solutions for doctors and patients.
Christopher: And I was first introduced to you by a medical doctor that is Jamie Kendall-Weed who is the CEO of Nourish Balance Thrive. And she's a medical doctor and she introduced me to the brand. I've since come to think of Thorne as being the Rolls Royce of supplement manufacturers. Whenever I hear about something new I always look to the Thorne catalog first to see if you make it. And back then, back in the beginning, I was very anti-supplements and I've never taken a supplement at all until about three years ago. Now I take all of the supplements. You name it, I'm taking it. I'm exaggerating a little bit but I do take a lot of supplements.
And the reason I take a lot of supplements is because I've had great results taking a lot of supplements. And it's kind of a stupid question but I can't resist asking it. How many supplements do you take? How do you choose? What are you taking at the moment?
Mario: Oh my goodness. Well, yeah, it's kind of daunting for some folks when they see what I take. I take a multivitamin. Usually my go-to is a simple daily multi called Basic Nutrients 2/Day. But I also take the specialized packet formula called LipoCardia and this is a combination of several different capsules of nutrients in a packet to help with cardiovascular health. Along with that, I take CoQ10, essential fatty acids, fish oil. And when I go for workouts and things like that I will also include something called NiaCel. It's a nicotinamide riboside. And then occasionally, I'll include this in my supplement regimen but whey proteins or some protein powders for breakfast as part of a smoothie. So that's part of my daily protocol as well. Yeah, I'm a little bit of a supplement junkie too.
Christopher: I think that's quite restrained actually. That's quite conservative. I've got like one of those walk in closets in my kitchen and you open the door like you eat only supplements [0:04:19] [Indiscernible].
Mario: Yeah. We pretty much come up with a supplement pantry in our house too or multiple ones in different rooms.
Christopher: Yeah, exactly. Nicotinamdie riboside is something I've just started taking. I interviewed Bob Rountree a couple of weeks ago and we talked about mitochondrial health. Yeah. So I have one of the other medical doctors on my staff is Tommy Wood and he's a research scientist and he spent a lot of time looking into nicotinamide riboside and it is something that we think is really exciting and promising.
Mario: Yes, yes. We're very excited about that.
Christopher: That kind of leads me to my next question, actually. How do you decide? So, there's all these different, these novel molecules or maybe some extract of food or something that could be a nutritional supplement, how do you decide what makes the cut?
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Mario: Well, it really kind of depends on -- what dictates that is what we see with regards to research and where it's going, right? And we're very fortunate to have a great what I obviously call our scientific advisory board medical affairs staff who have their eyes and ears open to some of the latest and greatest things that are happening. One of those right now, case in point, is nicotinamide riboside. I think that over the next years and even months or possibly even weeks, because there seems to be new findings happening very, very rapidly, we're going to learn more about this particular nutrient. And I think it's going to be very promising.
Christopher: So, how do you evaluate? Do you have like a team of research scientists or is it you? How do you evaluate the quality of the science that's emerging to help you make that decision?
Mario: We have a team of scientists, doctors, both naturopathic and medical doctors, Ph.D.s that help us review certain things that come our way. And we get ideas and suggestions, questions and queries from either internally from the scientific environment, from leaders within certain fields whether it be athletic performance or in the clinical aspect of things as well as clients themselves. And basically gauging from all those different kind of resources will come through what seems to be the most appropriate for our clientele and for our business at the time. And then kind of basically screen and parse things down from there.
Some of the criteria that we use are the strength of the science or where the trends are with regards to what's being studied already with a particular ingredient or nutrient. Then also how it fits in our model and what our particular needs are within the Thorne structure for a certain nutrient.
Christopher: Right. And how long does it take? So, let's take nicotinamide riboside as an example. When did Thorne first start looking at that molecule? Do you know how long it was in between that you're first starting looking at it and there actually being a product that was available for people to buy?
Mario: Oh boy. I think it's probably been now about two years.
Christopher: Right, two years. It sounds like a long time. I mean, when you compare that with what happens to pharmaceuticals, that's incredibly quick.
Mario: Yes, yes. It's all relative, right? When it comes to pharmaceuticals, that is a pretty quick timeline. When it comes to formulating nutritional supplements, that can seem to be a long time. For us, the turnaround typically for a formula to get from concept to shelf, if you will, can take up to 52 weeks or longer depending on certain things. So, a years-time of development, product development to commercialization can be quite a while when it comes to our supplement industry. But that is kind of a testament to the way Thorne does things. We do a lot of background work before something gets put on the shelf.
Christopher: Interesting. And then how do you -- so, what do you tell your mates in the pub what supplements to take? Because you must get asked this question all the time. And I don't want you to talk to me as a, even though you are a naturopathic doctor, I don't want you to try and give medical advice on the internet. But I'm just interested to know what you tell your friends when they ask, "Oh, what supplement should I take? Should I take resveratrol? Should I take nicotinamide riboside?" What do you tell them to take?
Mario: Well, when it comes to something like that, as a naturopathic physician, I tend to kind of lay this groundwork. Food is your best medicine. That's the key, right? So, you want to focus on having a healthy diet, a good balanced diet, taking out all the junk. You want to focus on whole foods and the like and of course hydration. It's the basics. But then on top of that, knowing that unfortunately the way that our food is headed, we may not really get all the nutrients that we actually need from food. And with the way that our lifestyles are, we push ourselves to a degree that our body may require more than what we're actually being able to provide.
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So that's where supplementation comes in. I mean, it's a perfect word, right? It's supplementing what we may not be getting from our preferred sources, which is food. So, using that as kind of a background, I tell folks to focus on some fundamentals like finding a good daily multivitamin. Another thing would be looking at an essential fatty acid whether it be fish oil or krill oil, something that can provide you with a consistent source of omega three fatty acids because they are so important in today's lifestyle.
Third thing would be looking at things that can help support healthy digestion and gut flora, so a probiotic. And for some folks, this is becoming more and more of a population part, things to help with digestion. So sometimes depending on if they ask me, I'll ask them some questions about how is your digestion, how are things working in that regard? And that will kind of prompt me to add on to that list either a digestive enzyme, some added fiber or both.
Then depending on the kind of activity that they have, their active lifestyle or sedentary lifestyle, there may be other things to put on top of that. One thing that I think is a key just with the way that we see the use of over the counter drugs and things of that nature is inflammation. And so more and more I'm finding that something like a natural product like curcumin can be of great help to a lot of people. And that's another one I should add on my list here that I didn't say before is curcumin. Our product is called Meriva-500.
Christopher: Oh, yeah. I know it. Phosphatidyl form of curcumin is better absorbed than just the powder alone.
Mario: Yes. Yes, that is correct. And so that ends up being one of the key supplements outside of just the fundamentals of the daily multi and essential fatty acids that I end up recommending. And, in fact, yes, there have been several times, several instances where I have been in a pub and I have--
Christopher: It must happen all the time. It must happen every time you leave the office or the house.
Mario: Yeah, yeah.
Christopher: What would you say to people then -- I looked on the Thorne website and I see that the multivitamin is $60 a month. And I can go into Costco or Walgreens and buy some sort of a supplement that's comparable in name but maybe not comparable in any other way. What's the difference?
Mario: Well, the difference lies, and this can be kind of a reset for folks who may have a previous kind of idea about supplements. They may be taking supplements in the past but then they see, let's say, a lot of the multivitamin formula that's historically at Thorne. You look at that label and you'll see something like six to 12 capsules daily as the recommended amount. That just kind of puts people off and say, "What? What are you talking about?"
The reason for that is the amount of vitamins and minerals that we put in the capsule -- first off, we use a capsule. So, that has a certain limit as to how much you can put in that space for the kind of nutrients that we're providing. Because what we try to do is provide these vitamins and minerals in a more absorbable form, something that the body could use more readily. And that can mean a form that takes up a lot more space. Okay?
Christopher: Okay.
Mario: So, that's one aspect to it. The other thing is we, part of our philosophy at Thorne is we don't use any unnecessary additives, fillers or flow agents. So anything that's in there needs to also have some sort of nutritional value to it, and not just going to be there for helping with manufacturing purposes. Not that there's anything wrong with that but that is just our philosophy and our take on how we want to do things.
Christopher: Right. And then, so this is kind of -- it's an interesting question. Why don't you use tablets? Why do you never see supplements in tablets anymore?
Mario: Well, historically, the reason for Thorne doing that is because historically when you make a tablet it involves a lot of binders.
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Things that can -- you look at these one-a-days, for example. There's a lot of minerals and vitamins and nutrients that you got to pack into a small space. And so in that packing process, you've got to keep that thing in one pill form. And historically or traditionally, the way that that's been done is using things that Thorne has just decided, "You know what, we don't want to go that route because those could potentially have an effect on how absorbable those nutrients become."
Christopher: And so the same is true with some of these manufacturing aids that make the powders flow more quickly, so things like magnesium stearate, for example?
Mario: Yes. So, that's one of the reasons why we have chosen not to use magnesium stearate. Now, magnesium stearate, there's nothing wrong with it. It is considered and generally regarded as safe material. And what it is, is it's basically a very fine fat. And it's used in the industry both in nutritional supplements and pharmaceutical industry as a flow agent to help the powders move through the machinery a lot more efficiently so it doesn't gum up the apparati or the apparatus, and gets into the capsules or gets into the tabletting machines a lot more effectively with minimum residual wastes and so forth. So, it makes everything more slippery.
Christopher: Right.
Mario: They don't really have a nutritional value. You don't really need to use a lot of it. But what's interesting about this is that magnesium stearate works as a type of coating, right? It coats the nutrient that you're trying to get into the capsule or tablet to flow better into those little, the capsules. But then that may be an obstacle to breaking down as far as absorption and whatnot in certain individuals. Most individuals, it may be fine but in certain ones, who are more sensitive or have some digestive compromise, it may be an issue. So, we just want to take out any potential obstacle.
Christopher: Right, right, right. And then do you look at it as like a proxy? When you're evaluating, I'm sure you look at other people's supplements or maybe you'd been in Whole Foods and somebody has asked you to look at a supplement and ask them, tell them whether it's any good or not, do you look at some of these flow agents and then use that as a kind of proxy to tell you about the quality? Or is it not possible to do that?
Mario: Well, it is one of those things that's like -- There are a lot of quality formulas out there. I applaud the people who are doing things right. This is one of the things that Thorne has decided to be part of our philosophy in using, in not using certain flow agents. And so I just use that as kind of an example. The other thing is looking at the forms of the ingredients themselves. Now, this opens up something else.
There is something with regards to a label that may not be telling, that doesn't really tell you everything. What's interesting about the industry is that a manufacturer or a supplement company is only really required to tell you or list on their label the things that they put into it. So where I'm going with this is there are ingredients that are within -- Say, a multivitamin. I'm going to use an example of, say, something like vitamin B12.
You'll be using, you use a very small amount. Or vitamin D, right? A very small amount of that vitamin is part of a multivitamin or even part of a standalone supplement. So there's got to be something there to help with it being filled in a capsule, right? And they're called diluents. Some of these diluents may be problematic or a challenge for individuals like using cornstarch or lactose or something else. Lactose is often used as a kind of filler for these micronutrients and for some of these vitamins, which in general may not really be a concern. But for those people who are extra sensitive to lactose that can build up, right?
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Christopher: Right. Hold on a bit. So let's just -- I'm slightly shocked by this. You're telling me that I could, as a supplement manufacturer, I could use lactose as a filler and then I wouldn't be required to put that on the list of ingredients on the label?
Mario: Well, you may use lactose itself as a filler in your product. And so then in that sense you would put it on. But what I'm saying is you've got a -- Company A makes a vitamin, a B complex let's say. B complex, you're using vitamin B12 that you get from a supplier and vitamin B6 or some other vitamins that make up that B complex. Well, that B12 material that you got from a supplier may already be diluted. And so as part of that--
Christopher: I see.
Mario: -- that pre-mix or that raw material, there could potentially be lactose, there could be cornstarch, there could be some other things in there that in general may not be too much of a problem but for people who are sensitive to those things they may not know that they're being exposed to that when they're taking that vitamin.
Christopher: I see, yeah. I see what you're saying now. Okay. And then so, all right, so let's just summarize then. So, if you're choosing a multivitamin, it's probably going to have multiple capsules, right? It's not possible to fit all of these nutrients into a single tablet. So, we should look for that.
Mario: Right, right. So that's because in those particular vitamins, the multis in particular, you just can't fit them all into one or two pills. Now, we've come up with a two 2/Day pill. That's a good multivitamin. But we still have to work with those kinds of parameters. So keeping that in mind, that's the reason why you'll see a six, recommended six capsules a day for some of our general multivitamins.
Christopher: Right. And then also to summarize, use Thorne because the products are formulated by naturopathic doctors and functional medicine practitioners. You know that it's not a good idea to include these fillers like maybe lactose that could cause people like me, who I know I'm lactose intolerant, a lot of problems and could actually -- it may actually be deleterious for me to take a supplement that included that thing.
Mario: Right. And it's just -- what we're trying to do is just remove any potential obstacles to optimum absorption and optimum performance.
Christopher: And so that's what you mean by the word hypoallergenic?
Mario: Right. Correct.
Christopher: Right. And then so another common question that I hear is, are these supplements making expensive pee? I'm sure you get that kind of question a lot?
Mario: Well, that comes back to, again, the choice or the types or forms of the nutrients themselves. So what we try to do so that you don't -- there's a saying that goes: The most expensive supplement is the one that you don't absorb.
Christopher: Right.
Mario: So, what we try to do is get the most bioavailable or absorbable forms that we can so that the body can utilize them more efficiently. So you're not having extensive pee. And so we look at, for example, with our B vitamins, we use forms such as methylcobalamin, which is a more bioactive form of B12. We'll use minerals that are bound to certain either amino acids or other substances to help increase or help support better absorption like calcium citrate, calcium citrate malate. Some of our trace minerals are bound to an amino acid, glycic. So you'll see things like iron is glycinate.
Christopher: Right. Yeah, I learned that one the hard way with some of the [0:24:16] [Indiscernible] supplements. Like the first time I found out I was deficient in iron, which is actually quite unusual, I might add, like having seen 500 odd blood chemistries now, but yeah, I went into Walgreens or something and bought some iron and, yeah, that cleaned me out pretty good. Didn't make that mistake again. That is really hard to absorb. I can't remember what type of iron it was but it certainly wasn't very well absorbed.
Mario: Right, right. And so, going back again, when you're looking at the labels and you're trying to see sometimes the label won't tell you everything. And so that's why it's good to know the company. I can't say what other companies are doing but I know this is what Thorne does. This is the level of attention that they give to putting out their products, their formulas, and the homework that we do.
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Christopher: Right. And then another frequently asked question that I hear is: Are these supplements hard on your liver?
Mario: What we try to do, for example, with some of these bioavailable forms is that it should not be hard on the liver because in some of the Bs, it requires the liver to convert them into what the body can use. So, if you're using a more bioactive form of, let's say, vitamin B6 like pyridoxal 5-phosphate as opposed to pyridoxal HCl or something like that, we use those forms because we like to cover this. And in that sense, it kind of helps the liver out because it doesn't have to convert. It's already converted.
The other thing is some of these herbs that we use, for example like meriva curcumin, this is actually a supplement or a nutrient that is hepatoprotective. So it actually supports liver function and protects the liver as opposed to using something else like some over the counter drugs that may have more of a stress on the liver while you're trying to get some sort of benefit from it.
Christopher: And so let's talk about curcumin. One of the things that I've been interested in for a while is what really happens, like what is the end to end process when I bottle of the Thorne curcumin? So what happens on the back end? I could just imagine you get this delivery maybe from somewhere in the Far East of this powder and maybe some guy with the clipboard says, "Thank you for the orange powder, sir," and then you just put it in capsule. Maybe I've oversimplified a bit. Can you kind of walk me through the process?
Mario: Well, interesting that you bring up curcumin because curcumin especially the form that we use in Meriva, this is a specialized form of curcumin, and we get this from a company or supplier in Italy, a very reputable herbal company extract company called Indena, and they are the ones that make Meriva. Meriva is from their end, they take a high quality curcumin or an extract from the spice or the root turmeric, get a very high quality high concentration curcumin extract, this is at least 95% curcumin extract.
Then they go through the process of binding this with a lipid, a phospholipid, phosphatidylcholine. And the reason for that is because curcumin by itself as a powder, although there's a lot of research to show its benefit in managing inflammation, as an antioxidant, all these different benefits, it's very poorly absorbed. And so one way to dramatically increase it's bioavailability, its absorption is combining it with some sort of fat like phosphatidylcholine.
And in doing that, it dramatically increases the availability and, therefore, reduces the amount that a person has to take. They don't have to take multiple grams or tablespoons of powder which could be -- that could get old very fast, using a number of powder. So, we start off with this, the quality material that we get from the supplier. Now, once we get that material, even though this is a very trusted company, we go through our, I'll call it a confirming process where the raw material will actually go into quarantine and we will do testing for its identity just to confirm its identity and also to confirm that it's free of contamination.
So, it goes through a process where we evaluate either through our in house lab or through outside laboratory sources to verify its identity, to check for contaminations whether it be microbes or heavy metals. And then once we find that it is, that everything is clear, that it will go through our process of making it through the finished good. And one thing that's interesting to know, I think maybe this is a good time to say it, every lot that goes through goes through at least three and sometimes four rounds of laboratory testing.
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At the beginning stages, first at the beginning stages as the raw materials, then in the middle during the manufacturing process and then at the end for finished goods before it goes on to the shelf. Once it's already been made it goes through another test, goes through another testing regimen again to make sure that everything is still clean, everything is still intact. And then there's also a stability testing. So sometimes there's actually four, four rounds of testing.
Christopher: Wow. Yeah, I know that's incredible and quite pleasing and quite reassuring to me. I always think about somebody's herb, like is it something that's grown in China next to a power station contaminated with heavy metals and then I'm taking in a capsule the next day? So, how does this compare? Do you know if this any different from the other supplement manufacturers or is this something unique to Thorne?
Mario: Well, it's something that we do and we do consistently. There's various supplement companies out there that may have their own processes. One thing that's interesting is that a lot of companies out there may not even make their own supplements, which is that's totally fine. But one of the key components with regards to Thorne is that as a consumer you have some confidence in knowing that we are a manufacturer.
When you are a manufacturer, when you make things, there's a certain level of oversight and control that you have that you just don't have if you're shopping out to other places. You can see what's going on. It's kind of like basically thinking about somebody who makes their own food as opposed to somebody who is ordering out. You know where everything comes from if you're making it yourself.
Christopher: Yeah, of course. And the other thing I think about is, say you're a company that's not doing the manufacturing or more specifically you don't have the quality control or quality assurance. Then what incentive does the manufacturer have to make sure that what you're putting on the label is actually what's there? They know you're not going to check. I could imagine there's not much incentive.
Mario: Right. So, for us, we don't want to just rely on what is said on a certificate of analysis or on a report. It's something that we call trust but verify.
Christopher: Let's talk about this certificate of analysis. Because there's something I found out about it fairly recently. People talk about, especially athletes, they worry about their stuff. It's the reason that creatine works is because it's spiked with nandrolone or something like that. It turns out for quality supplements especially those made by Thorne, you can actually request a certificate of analysis. And that is something that I've done in the past. Do you want to talk a bit about what a certificate of analysis is?
Mario: Well, a certificate of analysis is typically something that is provided by a supplier, at least on our end. When we get a raw material, a certificate of analysis is something that the supplier provides that says that they have checked it and this is what it says it is. And it may also show the methods that they've done that. So it will give you some information with regards to -- let's use B12 as an example.
A certificate of analysis for B12 will say: This is methylcobalamin. This is the -- it has been tested. These are the parameters that we've done our testing towards and it's met those parameters. And so we are saying that this is, in fact, what we say it is. Great. That is our certificate of analysis from the supplier that they say that this is what they say it is. And so what we will do, thank you very much, we'll take that but we'll also go through our process to verify that.
Christopher: Right. And so what you typically see then as printed on the actual certificate itself?
Mario: You'll see the name. You'll see the lot number, so identifying factors. You'll also see things like that it's been checked for key microbes, for example, or also heavy metals and what levels their specifications are and what levels the product tested out and then it will say whether that complies or not, that kind of information.
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Christopher: Right. Okay. And then I wanted to talk to you about retailing. I think this is kind of interesting too because I've kind of -- I've done it. In the beginning, when Nourish Balance Thrive was a slightly smaller company, it's only a little bit bigger now, but so, me and Jamie -- Actually, we're running lab tests, we're recommending supplements and it's me actually putting -- we keep a very small inventory. And so we order the supplements direct from Thorne and we buy them in boxes of nine, like very small quantities.
When someone order those supplements, it would be me putting the stuff in the box, putting a label on it, sealing it, sending it off by USPS and that work great. And then I kind of like wondered what happens with the Amazon process? I used to work for Amazon. It was kind of interesting in how people are -- Because all these supplements seems to be available on Amazon.com. And so I looked at this process and I actually sold some supplements on Amazon just to really understand how it worked and it quickly became apparent that the only way that you could possibly make money selling supplements on Amazon would be to buy a much, much larger quantity than I was buying and then send that to a fulfillment center probably in Reno, Nevada, which gets very hot in the summer. And then you let Amazon do the fulfillment.
So you don't get involved personally. You just do a one-time order, you send it to Amazon and then you just forget about it. You let Amazon do the rest. You would only make $1 or $2 per bottle but those $1 of $2 would eventually add up. You could say we like about this but I definitely worry about the heat stability of all these stuffs that are on [0:36:56] [Indiscernible] in Reno. But I'm just wondering how much Thorne cares about this or whether you have an opinion on that.
Mario: Oh, well, those kinds of things, what I can say is that you never know what happens after that, right? What we have is we can tell you that we have climate control, humidity controlled facilities as far as our work warehouses are concerned. And so, that -- it's kind of if you want to have that added confidence of knowing that not only your supplements had been prepared with the type of care that we've been talking about today but that they're being stored in a way that is responsible and also maintain the integrity of the supplements. We can only do that through, we can only say that through what we have stored in our facilities and with our qualified distributors.
Christopher: And I think I've talked to my rep at Thorne recently and I think it sounds like Thorne have actually made, put some effort into kind of clamping down on that type of behavior. And I'm not sure whether you can still buy Thorne products on Amazon.
Mario: Yeah, we're trying to cut down on that kind of thing with regards to -- one thing is trying to -- there are folks who try to undercut or discount the prices of the products to the general public, which can be a concern with regards to the folks that are doing it right. So, we have somebody who basically their job is to patrol the internet to see that everybody that purchases from our Thorne clients are playing by the proper rules so that nobody is going to be taking advantage of it.
Christopher: Right. Of course, it's a gigantic race to the bottom. As soon as you reach the bottom, there's kind of pressure on you to make the supplements even cheaper and then you start cutting the corners off of the processes that we've just been talking about. So, yeah, I don't think it's a good thing for supplements in general. And then finally, I wanted to talk about adverse event reporting. So, do you ever get to hear about it? If somebody takes a supplement and they have a negative reaction.
Mario: Yes. Actually, we do have in place, this is part of what I'll loosely call our aftercare service or our customer support service is that if there are adverse events or any kind of complaints with regards to our supplements, we do have a channel available. We are connected with an adverse event reporting organization that keeps track of these kinds of events. This is something that we have put as part of our compliance with the FDA so that we have a record of anything that would happen in the event of those kinds of things occurring.
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So thankfully, we don't have a lot of adverse events that come our way. But when we do the majority are just like upset stomach kinds of things. We have that all locked in.
Christopher: Right. So it's not common then, the adverse events?
Mario: No. I mean, some people will -- our typical adverse event is 'I took a supplement and I got a stomachache.'
Christopher: Right, right. As far it gets. Yeah, that's certainly the worse I ever heard. So, what are you working on now? Is there anything you can tell me?
Mario: I wish. It's almost like there's a lot of different things in the hopper but I don't know if I'm a privy to divulge those at this time. Suffice to say we've got a lot of great things coming your way over the next few months that I think will be great. We just launched a new formula, a powder, to help with inflammatory bowel kind of cases, to help with digestive support.
Christopher: That's interesting. Is that some sort of prebiotic powder?
Mario: It is, well, actually, it's a combination of Meriva and another herb called Boswellia along with some fiber and L-glutamine and aloe. So, L-glutamine is important for digestive health because it's an amino acid that's kind of the key nutrient for the cells that mind the gut. So, for anybody who has any kind of GI irritation inflammation, this is a way to help repair whatever kind of damage that may be happening to that gut lining, something called leaky gut. You may have heard this term before, where the junctions tend to be opened and that allows for things that shouldn't be absorbed to get absorbed.
Well, you want to have -- it's kind of like having a lax bouncer at a club. He's letting in everybody. That can be a problem. So, trying to maintain or help rebuild the integrity of the gut lining but along with that having these two key herbs both in a phytosome format, I should add, so that's that greater bioavailability to help reduce or help manage the inflammatory processes as well can be very helpful for patients who have these ongoing digestive issues or GI issues. And so we're very pleased and excited to have this available now for folks. And I think it's going to do them a lot of good.
Christopher: Yeah. And so, it's in a powder form. Is it going to have some sort of artificial sweetener in there?
Mario: No, no artificial sweeteners. It is a pleasant citrus flavor and it's used with natural flavors from oils and extracts from citrus plants that sweetened with, I believe it's stevia.
Christopher: Okay.
Mario: There are no artificial sweeteners.
Christopher: Okay. And so you don't think there's a problem with stevia?
Mario: Well, I think stevia is a good alternative to use.
Christopher: Right. I know some of these things are just going to taste like ass unless you put something in there.
Mario: Yeah. That's right, yeah. I know that stevia, the concerns about stevia for a lot of folks is just that practical bitter aftertaste.
Christopher: Oh, yeah. I think it tastes absolutely dreadful to me. I'd rather almost have the bitter amino acid type flavor than the stevia. But I feel like with stevia, it's like one of those things that's going to bite me in the ass later on. We don't really have any data on it right now, but I have a feeling it's going to be the next thing we discover is the next novel poison that you just launched.
Mario: To that meld, we are looking at different or alternative types of natural sweeteners. One is Lo Han, for example. We've used it in some other formulas as a combination with stevia so we don't have to rely on stevia so much. And that is one of the things that I'm working on as far as looking at other powdered products that we come up with using other natural sweeteners like Lo Han as an alternative to stevia. Because I know that bitter aspect of it, even when you get a good stevia, can be an issue for some folks.
Christopher: You know what I really want? I really want a powdered MCT oil. Not an oil. Just powdered MCT. You know what I mean? The medium chain triglyceride.
[0:45:00]
Normally, it's in the liquid form, which is kind of inconvenient. And for some people, it gives them the runs where it goes right through them and gives them diarrhea. And I'm wondering whether the powdered form might be better. I've seen some of these powdered MCTs but they're normally powdered with some sort of fiber that's maybe slightly suspicious. Whereas you could use one of these prebiotic powders that's maybe being shown to be helpful in some of the IBS studies, some of these bionic fibers as I've been calling them or Grace Liu has been calling them. And then like powder dry the MCTs. I don't know whether that's possible or not. Maybe you could tell me whether that's possible.
Mario: Well, that could be a possibility. MCTs are a great area of interest right now and that is actually something that has been brought up a few times, so who knows? We'll see what may come up.
Christopher: Okay. So, if you do it now, I can see -- joking. I know I can't do it because now I understand what it really takes -- it's easy for me to say, well, I could just get some of these MCT powder from Alibaba or whatever on the internet and just shove it into a container and just start selling it. But now I understand what it really takes to make a supplement. I realize it's not quite that easy.
Mario: And, Christopher, what we've been talking about is the process that's in place for product -- this is a product that's out that we know of and we're just making the product. When it comes to product development or research and development where I'm at and we're exploring different things, not only different potential ingredients but the materials themselves, part of that process, even when we're just sampling something, is that a new, any kind of new ingredient or new material, we implemented this process where that potential supplier, before they send us a sample of it they have to fill out an 11-page questionnaire with regards to that ingredient.
So there's this other pre-screening that happens even before we go through this process. Because the last thing we want to do is find something. Can you imagine going through all this work and then finding out, getting the sample of something and finding out that, oh, it's got lactose in it?
Christopher: It's a disaster. And I don't think people or some people realize. Like I have to use some ketone ester supplements recently. I'm sure you kind of have been looking at this and aware of the ketone supplements. One in particular I tried, it just gave me diarrhea straight away. And I'm sure it's -- it worked. It raised my blood levels of ketones. It also gave me diarrhea, which I can't really deal with. I think it was because it had some sort of -- it said milk solids in the ingredients. You never know for sure what did it.
And what's interesting is the beta-Hydroxybutyrate sodium potassium, salt, which tastes catastrophically awful, like you can't imagine how bad they taste, they don't upset my stomach at all. I had no problem. So, yeah, I feel like with a particular product, I feel like the kind of the extra length they went to, to make it taste good was actually detracting from the supplement in the end.
Mario: Right. That's the kind of thing that you got to be careful with, right? We have to be careful with it all in the process of trying to make something palatable. I'm sure that initially it was with good intentions, right, of being pure and whatnot. But then along the way, because you wanted it, they wanted it to taste good for the majority of people, [0:48:43] [Indiscernible] a compromise in the efficacy.
Christopher: Right. And I feel like that's where Thorne is so much different, is you're catering specifically to special flowers like me rather than just trying to push a supplement that's going to have the fewest adverse events for the majority and not worry too much about those such cases.
Mario: Yes. Well, that's part of Thorne's history. It was kind of the supplement for the people who needed care because they didn't have any place to go. And so that's why we have such a commitment to efficacy, hypoallergenicity, purity, so that we can minimize those potential disappointments for people who are looking for good nutrition but have special needs.
Christopher: Special needs. That's exactly right.
Mario: I didn't mean it that way.
Christopher: I often describe myself as being special needs.
Mario: No, it's one of those things that in the end we find that we all have special needs.
Christopher: Yeah, of course, of course. Well, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed this conversation. I feel like I've learned a lot. Is there anything else that you'd like people to know about?
Mario: Oh, wow. I don't know. Well, I would say that if you are interested in looking at nutritional supplements, it is in your best interest to do some homework.
[0:50:07]
Find out of these companies that you're using how, what their process is. This is what I can tell you about Thorne and this is why I feel comfortable as a clinician in using them and recommending them to my patients, to my friends, to the folks that I meet at the pub. But this kind of information isn't necessarily available for all companies unless you as a consumer kind of do the digging.
Christopher: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm all for that, the kind of do-it-yourself science or do-it-yourself doctrine almost where it's you doing the research at home and trying to figure out exactly how this thing works and how this supplement works and what evidence there is to support its use. And if you find anything bad especially, please do email me. My email address is chris@nourishbalancethrive.com. I'm always like really keen to hear your feedback and find out what you've learned. Yeah, that means a lot to me. Cool. Well, thank you so much, Mario. This has been really great.
Mario: Well, thank you, Chris, for the time. It's been a pleasure.
Christopher: Thank you.
Mario: All right. Take care.
[0:51:11] End of Audio
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