Written by Christopher Kelly
April 7, 2016
Jeremy.Hendon.on.2016-03-30.at.07.03
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Christopher: Hello and welcome to the Nourish Balance Thrive Podcast. My name is Christopher Kelly and today I'm joined by author, speaker, digital nomad -- that's a great term -- Jeremy Hendon. Hi, Jeremy.
Jeremy: Hi. How are you?
Christopher: I'm great, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on today. I'm super excited to have you. Why don't you tell us about what you've been doing lately? Because I think this is really, really interesting.
Jeremy: Yeah. I assume you mean the digital nomading.
Christopher: Yeah, digital nomading. You're living the life that we all want to love.
Jeremy: That we all want to love. I like that. So, it is funny because you introduced me as an author-speaker. Those are two things I commonly use and I also commonly use entrepreneur. I don't often use digital nomad even though it's so obvious that's sort of what I do because what my wife and I had been doing is just living in different places around the world continuously. So, for right now, we're in Taiwan, in Taipei. We're only here for another eight or nine days. And then we're off to China for a week, back to the US for two weeks to do a couple of speaking engagements, and then we're going to be in Lisbon for three months during the summer.
Yeah, I can go by. We've been everywhere. We spent four months in Thailand. We spent three months in Scotland, a month in Canada, two months in China, half or almost a month in France. So, we've been -- not all over. We haven't spent much time lately in South America or Australia but we've been around.
Christopher: There are so many reasons I don't know whether to love or hate you. You do so many things so well that I just kind of really struggle with.
Jeremy: Well, it's funny to say that on a health podcast because that's one of the things that has not gone as well. I mean, I'm not having any health problems but we definitely don't eat as healthy when we're traveling all the time. It's just really, really hard. And we do a better job of it than most because there's certain things we don't do like we just don't eat wheat, we don't drink any alcohol, by and large. There are occasions but very rarely.
We have some hard and fast rules but when I compare my diet when I'm traveling to my diet when I'm stable somewhere in the US like in California or anywhere really, it's really night and day. I mean, we're so, so much better when we're at one place for a long time in the US.
Christopher: Right. And that's one of the things that you do really, really well. Obviously, you and your wife Louise, the ancestral chef.
Jeremy: I was going to say it's been a while since she had that website but, yeah.
Christopher: I don't know, we still think of her as the ancestral chef. But she's a proper cook, isn't she? She like really knows how to create good food.
Jeremy: Yeah, she's good. I'm lucky.
Christopher: And I know that. I can speak from experience because we have actually met and had dinner and, yeah, we've experienced it all. This is not just a virtual blowing of smoke up your ass. I really know that you're good. So, how do you make it work? How are you able to navigate restaurants? Because I think that's one of the things that you do really well is like condensing things down into just tell me what to do. What are you top tips for traveling and staying Paleo?
Jeremy: It's funny because that's how Louise and I view one of our unique abilities or super powers, is we feel like we're really good encapsulating things and making them very simple for people. So, what we try to do in health is what I try to do in business. If I consult for businesses, I go and really look at the one or two things that will make a big difference. It's interesting you say that. But it's also interesting how you started that out, like how do you make it work?
Because I always get this thought subconsciously in the back of my mind whenever anybody asks me that. I'm like, man, if they saw how it really worked, how should I say it works? But no, I mean, as far as traveling goes, there's one of two ways and we've done it two different ways, is what I would say. When we are super serious about it and when we're living somewhere for a long time -- That's one of the keys, is actually to -- if you're traveling into a new city every two to three days, it's infinitely harder to eat well and do things.
I mean, the only answer there is to just be careful when you're going out to restaurants. But one of the big keys is to actually spend time somewhere, which on the one hand actually makes it cheaper because you can usually rent an apartment for much cheaper. You're not paying as much in flights and everything. But it also makes it much easier from a health perspective because you can, A, cook more because you can usually get a place with a kitchen. You can, B, find places that you know what you can get at and you know what you like and what's healthy there and you can going back which is often what we do.
Like in Thailand, for instance. We were pretty good about how we ate there. We ate rice and we didn't always avoid seed oils just because when you're eating -- although ironically it's actually easier to avoid seed oils in Thailand. In most places they cook not only in a lot of coconut oil but a lot of places explicitly cook only on olive oil, which is very interesting because you don't even get that very many places in North America or Europe.
So, in Thailand, for instance, one thing we did is every morning I would go and get tea eggs. If you don't know what tea eggs are, they're just boiled eggs that are then cracked open, simmered in like a soy sauce and spiced water base. And so I would have those a lot of morning often with a little bit of rice, just because there wasn't too much else to eat with the eggs.
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Well, anyway, it's hard to get vegetables in Northern Thailand. Vegetables are not a common commodity in Northern. You can buy them at the supermarket but if you're not cooking, it's just hard to get them at restaurants.
Christopher: So, you prefer to just like have a base station there and then have a kitchen and you can actually do some cooking for yourself.
Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's the number one easiest way to make sure that you're eating healthy and to not -- because otherwise, you're going out all the time. You're going to go to different places, you're going to, A, be tempted. It's much harder to resist from the foods right in front of you. We can joke all we want about how, "Oh, yeah, I'll just go out to all these 100 different restaurants and I'll make sure I'll just order really, really healthy food."
Well, it doesn't happen for everybody. It doesn't even happen for me if I'm doing that all the time. Because sometimes I'm going to be tired or I'm going to have less willpower for some reason I'm going to order something that's not as good. And then you start sort of a downward spiral.
Christopher: Yeah, that definitely happened to me recently snowboarding. We went out for sushi. In the beginning I tell the waitress that I had a soy allergy. And I find telling someone that you've got an allergy even if it's just really a sensitivity or a preference even is the easiest way to get it done. And all these delicious sushi came out and by the end it's like my soy allergy was getting better.
Jeremy: Disappeared?
Christopher: Yeah. And I didn't actually have -- nothing bad happened. There was no ramifications from that. But, yeah, I can see it's difficult. Actually, I was very lucky for that trip that Julie basically vacuum sealed a week worth of food into these bags, into these vacuum sealer bags and sent me off snowboarding. And so that was pretty amazing. I realize not everyone can do that.
Jeremy: You definitely can't do it for two years.
Christopher: Right, exactly. Exactly. Two-year-old food, fossilized pemmican. I think that's a really good trick. Anyway, I always think of the gap year student that thinks they've gone traveling, but really all they've seen is the inside of 125 European bus station in two weeks. They haven't really seen anything and it makes more sense when you're traveling just to take a little bit of time in each place and maybe rent somewhere and get a kitchen and establish a bit of a base before you move on.
Jeremy: That's what we like. I mean, we still hang around with a lot of people who really -- Often people ask me, "Oh, how many places have you been?" I'm like, "Well, I don't even know. I don't count anymore." But not a lot, not as many as a lot of people who are younger than me now and who -- But that's because they all like traveling one place to the next. And not that I don't still do short trips. Like while we're in Asia, we did weeklong trip to Vietnam and a weeklong trip to Myanmar, partially because they're both right next to Thailand effectively.
It was great. I still go places like that. But I like to have a base where I'm living in actually, learning about the culture more. And I say culture. I don't mean even the old culture. It means how people live now and what's going on now. That's just what we really like.
Christopher: And how do you work? I wonder about that. So, one of the reasons I've got you on -- Yeah. So, you and Louise have just produced a new ketogenic cookbook and we've been cooking up some of the recipes and really enjoying that. And it's a wonderful book. And like I said, Louise is a fantastic cook. But how do you get things done during the day? Are you like working in coffee shops or Wi-Fi in your apartment? How does that work?
Jeremy: Yes. Some combination of both, that is the easy answer. We go through phases. I think we could plan these phases better. They're a little haphazard right now. We go through phases where we work really hard and then phases where we don't work nearly as hard. And I actually think it worked better if we intentionally did that rather than having it just sort of happen. But we work in coffee shops. If we're in a certain place where it has a good coworking space, we might work in a coworking space. And there a lot more of those popping up around the world. And then we always make sure that we get an apartment that has really good Wi-Fi.
Christopher: Yeah. I can't imagine that will be it. I suppose Wi-Fi, does the ubiquitous internet has just changed everything for people like you?
Jeremy: It has. Ironically, in Thailand, the place we worked at, the average internet speed was 200 down and 100 up.
Christopher: Oh, wow. That's like, that's better than Silicon Valley in California.
Jeremy: It's much better. I mean, it's not as good as Google Fiber but it's much better than pretty much anything else in the US.
Christopher: That's incredible. And then what about the photos? So, the new cookbook -- I'll tell you what it's called since I'm talking about it. It's The Essential Keto Cookbook. It's full of beautiful pictures. I know that Louise is a fantastic photographer and she's been taking some great pictures while you've been away traveling. But how does she get that done? How do you take great pictures of food whilst you're traveling?
Jeremy: It's really not all that different. The only difference really is that you just have to find props or staging equipment or plates, tables, that sort of thing to put in the photos to make them look nice. But as far as making the food, photographing the food itself and the lighting and everything, it's really no different because we're in places where it's sunny, we're in places where we have kitchens, we can make the food. She's got her camera with her including the tripod. And so, everything apart from actually having the background props like the plates and napkins, tables, that sort of thing, is pretty much identical.
Christopher: That's amazing. That's like a true inspiration, isn't it? You're doing something that you love. You just ditched everything.
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Life left Morgan Hill. "Oh, I'm just going to take my camera and we're going to make a cookbook. It will be fine." I'm sure there's a lot of people listening that are thinking, "No, it won't be fine. I'm not doing that."
Jeremy: I do get that reaction a lot even from people who I know could do it. I mean, look, it's funny because I'm starting to move into some new things myself like some things outside of health and more in business. It scares me and I often don't think it's going to be fine. It's not as if I've come this path that I don't still have these fears, that it's not all going to be fine, it's not going to work out, that it's all going to fall apart and people will realize that it never was really working or whatever. I mean, I still have these thoughts and fears but, I think, realistically, anybody can make it work. It's just is the pain of how you are great enough to overcome the fear of what you think might be?
Christopher: And then you'll never -- I mean, you'll always going to be a super sharp person. I think of you as one of the smartest people in the room all of the time. And then you write beautifully. And in the previous life, you were an attorney, right?
Jeremy: I was, yeah.
Christopher: So, you're never going to be hard up. Let's face it. Even if the Paleo diet will just somehow mysteriously vanish and you decided that you didn't like public speaking or entrepreneurialism, you're never going to be skin or hungry.
Jeremy: Yeah, yeah. It's hard to remember that sometimes though honestly. It really is hard as funny as it sounds to remember that sometimes.
Christopher: I'm quite lucky that I get the recruiter at Google. He checks in with me every few months. He's like, "Everything going okay? Anything I can do for you?" And I'm thinking, wow, you're probably sitting on so many exciting projects that will be really interesting for me to do now and I can stop worrying about all these entrepreneurial crap. But, yeah, I know, I mean, you have to remember that this lifestyle that you've just described, I mean, it's the type of work that you're working that afford you that. That's what enables you. You couldn't do this type of thing if you're working a desk job as an attorney, obviously.
Jeremy: Yeah. I think, from a health perspective too, not just in terms of what we do but from our own personal health, I don't know why this just came up for me, but it's interesting because one of my good friends, Tim Collins, who runs a podcast called The Anxiety Podcast and he coaches people with anxiety, helps them get over their fears and anxiety. And he's really, really good at it and he's become very, very successful in a very short time because he's just amazing. Anybody that deals with anxiety should go listen to him. Look him up, Tim JP Collins, or look up his podcast, The Anxiety Podcast.
But so many people -- I'll tell you part of his story very quickly. He was dealing with a lot of anxiety himself, I guess, having panic attacks. I won't go into it too much. But he met a guy, also one of my mentors, and he asked him. He said, "Do you think it could be my job?" And the guy, my mentor Philip, was like, "Well, why don't you quit and find out?" But it's one of those things. One of the things in health that we talk so much about but nobody seems to have a great answer to is stress or anxiety.
I think part of that is because in the modern way we live we just don't have -- I think it's built into our modern lifestyle, with information overload, with not enough community around us. All sorts of things that contribute to it. But another part of it is that we feel like we're stuck in certain places. And so it's interesting that you started off talking about me as a digital nomad because we still have stress but at the same time, I think it's -- I had a lot more in a lot of ways when I was working as an attorney. Not just because it's very stressful being an attorney. It is. I mean, I was working for clients lie Goldman Sachs and other big banks. They're pretty demanding.
Christopher: I know what those guys are like. I've been for a job interview at Goldman Sachs in London and I know what that environment is like.
Jeremy: You have to say for Goldman Sachs, I loved working with them. Because as a lawyer, one thing you hate is clients who are not on top of their own stuff. That is, they don't get back to you quickly. They don't know what they're talking about. Because it just makes your job harder as a lawyer. Goldman Sachs, whatever you say about them being greedy or whatever, they are really, really darn good about what they do and they hire the best people.
So whenever you work with them, it's amazing because they'll get back to you in five minutes and tell you exactly what you need to know. And when you get on a call with them, a lot of clients, you'll be on a call and they'll take an hour to tell you what could have been three minutes. They'll do it in a minute what could have taken three minutes. It's fascinating. Anyway.
Christopher: Yeah, I know. I'm not sure. You're right. I think there's not many good solutions for stress. The only thing I know is you can really improve your resilience, so with things like guided meditation and some other hacks. But I wonder whether we should get on to your anxiety podcast guy and tell him about the organic acid test, measure some of his 5-hydroxyindoleacetate and see if he's got too much of it because serotonin binding to the HT4 receptor causes release of cortisol tachycardia. So, there could be a biochemical reason why he started his podcast, right?
Jeremy: Yeah, yeah.
Christopher: It's possible. But yeah, I know. It doesn't mean that the other, like the diet and lifestyle hacks are not useful.
Jeremy: Or even just lifestyle in terms of taking a leap and stop feeling like you're stuck and actually doing something.
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Because like you said, so many people have the response, "Oh, I couldn't do it. It wouldn't be okay if I jump out of what I'm doing to go travel or whatever." And honestly would. I mean, yeah, you could make it work.
Christopher: And the ketogenic diet might make it work but even better I think because it does tip the ratio more towards GABA from glutamate so that kind of calming sort of soothing feeling. Certainly I feel more productive when I'm eating a ketogenic diet and more calm and focused. I was wondering is that what Louise -- What was it? I was quite surprised when she first said to me quite a long time ago now that she was creating or writing a ketogenic cookbook. What was it that prompted her to do that?
Jeremy: As you might know -- just trying to think where to start the story -- you might know, before we even got into Paleo, the way I got into Paleo was through low carb. So, I started a low carb diet back in like 2004 now, I want to say. I was low carb for about two years then. I was low carb on and off for six months at a time even through 2009. So, I was low carb for a very long time and really liked it. I mean, it was the first way that allowed to much more easily control my own weight because I was always a fat kid, always had trouble losing weight and keeping it off.
I did it in semi-unhealthy ways in college. I say semi-unhealthy. I mean, I was working out a ton. I was running like 60 miles a week and I was eating low fat, which I thought at that time was the way to go. But it was never easy. And low carb was one of the ways that made it easier. Long story short, I found Paleo and variety of ways from that and we always been low carb since but what we'll do is we'll low carb/keto times. And recently -- and we've always supported it.
Like in my mind, it's always been pretty much the best way for somebody to jump in to losing weight. I find that from a practical standpoint, it just works better for most people. I know that there's exceptions to this. This is a generalization because, yeah, I definitely think that there are some people out there this just does not work best for whatever reason whether it's their own lifestyle factors or their body or whatever. But, I think, by and large, for most people, it's one of the easiest most practical ways. It feels easier. You don't get hungry. You don't crave foods. I think that's the biggest dilemma for most people for losing weight.
And so, why did she create a cookbook? I mean, we saw a lot more interest in it recently. We had a lot more people asking us about it. We already had a lot of low carb recipes. Because before we started Paleomagazine.com, we actually had a website called lowcarbelicious.com. We actually used to -- Our first business was Louise's Foods, which we manufacture low carb cereal and low carb granola. It's always been something that we have really liked. We saw a resurgence of interest from people asking us about it and so we decided to put together a cookbook.
Christopher: I think that's very meaningful actually for me because I know the kind of circles that you run in. You've sent me some fantastic people to work with, one of whom is Floyd. He organizes the QCon Conferences. And Floyd ended up inviting me to speak at one of his conferences in San Francisco for software developers. Man, I wish I had a couple of hours to do some tutoring with you on public speaking before that happened because that was -- It's one thing to talk into a mike on a podcast and it's another thing to stand in front of 100 software developers that are all like trying to look you in the eye.
It's like your first time using or doing a PowerPoint. In fact, it wasn't PowerPoint. It was Keynote. I was like trying to figure out how you do a presentation on a Mac because I've always been a Linux guy and this is the first time I've ever had to do a presentation.
Jeremy: Yeah. I'm sure you fit in with that conference very well though. It's funny because one of the ways I always introduce you to is partially like a geek/nerd and like what partially makes you so good at what you do from a health perspective is that you've got that nerd side where you're so interested in figuring it all out. And so, I'm sure it went very well there with that crowd.
Christopher: It did. Yeah, I know. They seem to enjoy my talk. And they actually ranked the talks. I can't say that I ranked above average. I definitely did not but it was not below average either. You get people to put colored tickets in the box as they leave and I think I did all right. I made some real schoolboy errors. The eye contact thing was really wigging me out and I ended up just staring at my presentation, like actually turning around and looking at the slides, which is a schoolboy error. I'm not sure. Something worse might have happened if I had not done that.
Floyd is an incredible guy. He's really, really intense, really focused and, obviously, extremely successful in running this company that puts on these developer conferences. I think of him as kind of prototypical of the type of people that you probably run in circles with and I wondered whether those types of people are now all kind of [0:19:34] [Indiscernible] on and switching to ketogenic diet. So, would you say it's still largely unknown amongst those people?
Jeremy: It's becoming more and more known. It's nowhere close to the majority of those people that are switching to it but it's definitely more and more known and I see more and more. I don't have any idea of the percentage. It definitely varies with age. You'll find a lot more of the young guys who are willing to jump into it much more quickly.
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Once somebody's past, even just past 30, I'm sure it's a lower percentage. I guess I don't have any hard numbers on this, just my personal experience, definitely much lower percentage. It's all the younger guys who, essentially the bio hackers, who are willing to jump into it more wholeheartedly.
Christopher: And then do you find the men are doing better on it as well? Because that's been my experience. It might just be a selection bias based on me being a guy and maybe some more of the people that listen to the podcast are guys and maybe I just work with more guys in general, but are you finding that? So, Louise does fine on a ketogenic diet.
Jeremy: Yeah. She actually loves it. I mean, the answer is that it's hard to say because so few women I know do it. It's just not something that I find a lot of women willing to jump on to, in that circle in particular. A lot of women who are older and really interested in losing weight, they tend to do well on it and they tend to jump on it. I know like a lot of our readers for Paleomagazine.com and a lot of people that we know in a slightly older age group, say, above 45, not to say that you're older if you're above 45. I'm just saying older than the 20-year olds. That age group, like above 45 women who are looking to lose at least 20 or 30 pounds, I find I don't have an answer if they do as well or not. But I do find it works very well for them. My guess would be just as well on average.
Christopher: Right. I kind of want to probe for these things because I only hear from the or hear about or hear from the women that are not doing well. You find this with all kinds of stuff. Like the people that buy something and it works just fine for them, you don't find them on a forum like talking about it. "I bought this battery charger and it worked just fine." That's just not what people do.
So, I wonder whether the same is true to some extent with the diet. You only hear from the people that it doesn't work for. But certainly, my wife Julie is -- she gravitates to it. She doesn't seem to be that bothered by carbs. She just doesn't eat them. And it's weird. You would have thought that -- Tommy is the medical doctor that we work with. He's the real scientist. He's a big fan of carb cycling and thinks that carbs are a good idea for women of reproductive age and certainly that's Julie and she's been breastfeeding for a couple of years now and just no issues with anything you might associate with those types of problems. There are no hormonal issues or problems producing breast milk or anything like that. I really would love to know. I wish there was more data that we could kind of figure out who this works for and who it doesn't.
Jeremy: Just going off the cup without data, I imagine that pretty much anybody who has been quite healthy for a while, who doesn't have major issues whether it's any sort of major disease or particularly any sort of micronutrient deficiencies, pathogens, the kind of stuff that you often deal with also, I imagine anybody who is generally baseline healthy without any major issues in those areas, is probably going to do well on most any decent diet is my guess. Do you know what I mean?
Christophr: Yeah, I know. I agree. Most of it is. It's a hermetic stress. When you deprive your body of something that it can use as an energy substrate and it has to resort to something else, well, that's a bit like working out. You're putting a stress on your body and then theoretically it should come back stronger and adapt to that stress and do well should that stress happen again in the future.
If you're in a situation where you got an entamoeba histolytica infection and all these other problems then now might not be the best time to try a kegotenic diet. And if you've been living on pasta and bread. But I don't think most people listening to this podcast would be well well beyond that stage, like stop eating cereal probably long before I did let alone --
Jeremy: I think one of the other pitfalls, one of them is just not being healthy or having too much stress to begin with. And I think there are a lot of, like you said, somebody that has that sort of infection or somebody -- Before we were recording here we talked about people who are working out too hard or just really stressed from being an athlete or something. I mean, that can be another stressor.
But I think one of the other ones too is that a lot of people you'll hear from, I don't know how honest with themselves they are but whether or not they're really sticking to it. And I think ketogenic diets or any low carb diet really can be a problem if you're kind of bouncing back and forth every few days and just kind of -- or if you're like right on the edge of being what might be considered low carb, not even just like ketogenic, but I think because then, then you do develop -- Like there's just a lot more stress on your body if you have to keep switching back and forth.
I mean, you want to have that metabolic flexibility but at the same time to keep stressing your body where it's like, "Okay now, I'm starving, I only have ketones." And then on the other hand, "Oh my god, I got 200 grams of sugar." I think that can be a real big stressor. And I imagine that there are a lot of people who think that they're basically doing it well that aren't really tracking it well and are actually eating too many carbs or too much protein.
Christopher: Right. And that could be -- So, one of the most interesting guys in this industry who I'm sure you know is Jason Seib. He has his AltShift diet. We did an interview recently. I'll link to this in the show notes.
[0:25:01]
One of the interesting things is if your goal is weight loss then inefficiency is the name of the game. You don't want your body to be very efficient and conserve energy. You want it to waste as much as possible. And that was kind of one of the ideas behind this AltShift diet where you switch between a very low fat diet and high fat diet. And there's not really 200 grams of sugar anywhere in there. It's still kind of a Paleo template.
But that kind of makes sense when you understand some of the biochemistry. Your body has to adapt. If you start throwing a bunch of sugar at your body and doing high intensity exercise then the nucleus in the cell has to start expressing new enzymes like lactate dehydrogenase. That's a protein. You have to synthesize that. And it takes a couple of days for you to start getting good at making that again. And that's going to be a cost. That's going to make you less efficient, which is sort of what you want if you're trying to lose weight.
I think it's something for people to think about, like kind of doing that. But he's not switching backwards and forwards on a daily basis. It's five days on three days off, five days on three days off. Yeah, the Facebook group. I don't know if you're part of it. They've been posting some incredible pictures and there's like thousands of people on it there. I just look at the low fat diet options like egg white omelets and all those kinds of stuff. I'm like, no, I couldn't eat that. I really couldn't.
Jeremy: Yeah. At the same time I wonder how much efficiency you really lose. I mean, just don't know. I haven't seen the research on that, at least not clinically, to know how much efficiency your body would really lose. But you're not losing any energy. If you're eating enough of the food, the food is not going anywhere. It's being used as energy still.
Christopher: Right. And it depends on so many other things as well. So, for example, to get back to my lactate dehydrogenase example, that's an enzyme that's part of anaerobic glycolysis. But if you're just chilling at your desk first thing in the morning, my guess is, or my hope is, that you're not doing a lot of anaerobic. Anaerobic just means without oxygen, as in a 20-minute high intensity sprint. Like you shouldn't really be doing that type of glycolysis whilst you sat at your desk anyway. So, of course, the diet and lifestyle and the stress and all that, all that stuff plays into it too. And diet is not the only variable.
Jeremy: Yeah. I mean, I agree with the inefficiency although I agree with it more almost from an exercise standpoint because then I do think that when it comes to weight loss or fat loss and burning energy, it actually does dramatically to some degree increase your, the amount that you're going to burn. Because as you get more and more efficient, obviously, you just don't have to use much energy, easier to move the weight or easier to do things. But, I think from my perspective still -- You've had Stephan on the podcast, right?
Christopher: Yes, Stephan Guyenet, yes.
Jeremy: Yeah, yeah. When I look at weight loss, I really still look at a lot of research he and all the other obesity researchers have done, right? You and I have talked about food reward before and hyperpalatable food. And I really just -- in the end, I think it all comes down to -- not health. I think we have to step right out of health and weight loss. There are a lot of things that can make you unhealthy. But when it comes to actually losing weight and losing fat, it's a pretty basic overeating problem. Or not necessarily overeating, maybe combined with not moving enough and a few other things.
But it's a pretty basic energy problem. And Gary Taubes had always had a good analogy. It's like, well, that thing, that's like saying that traffic is the problem of having too many cars or saying the restaurant is booked because it has too many people, which is true. But then the question becomes why are we eating too much or how do we solve it or how do we solve the energy problem? I agree with Taubes about that.
I think part of the reason that we like keto and low carb diet so much is because based of -- and even Paleo, to a large degree, even if you're not low carb but Paleo, to a large degree, is they solve that problem almost automatically for a lot of people. Not for everybody. There are definitely exceptions to this. And after a while, after it becomes more efficient psychologically, you often start adding things back in which is another pitfall.
I think they solved that problem very well for a lot of people because a lot of people when they go keto they take a lot of things out and don't put a whole lot of other ones in and for various physiological reasons you don't crave as much. You don't get as hungry.
Christopher: Yeah, I know that certainly what happened to me. And it was a mistake actually what I did in the beginning with keto is to stop eating all the carbs, didn't eat nearly enough fats. Even now, I am still slightly fat phobic. I've been eating ketogenic diet for couple of years now and so is Julie and even now I still look, "Oh my god, look how much fat is in there. That's like literally 1000 calories of fat right there. And we're just about to eat it." Yeah, I mean, it's [0:29:50] [Indiscernible] pretty deep and so that's what I did. I just ate sardines, I think. And guess what? I dropped a ton of weight and went down to the lightest I've even been. I think I went down to 138 pounds at my lightest and I now I'm more like 158, so 20 pounds.
[0:30:06]
Jeremy: I think I might have weighed that much when I was 14 years old.
Christopher: Yeah. It was just all muscle. Like it wasn't -- I mean, sure I was skinny but my clothes size hasn't really changed in gaining 20 pounds of weight. I'm sure that's why, it's because it's just a bunch of muscle that I lost and it made me kind of slow on the bike. Even going up the hill I thought, wow, I'm going to crush it, like in all the mountain bike races and I didn't know. Like everybody has disappeared. But is that how you've done it then? I've seen you. You've always been what I thought was a regular sized guy and then one day you turned up for dinner at our house and you were looking pretty shredded. So, what was it you did? Was it keto? Was it something else?
Jeremy: Yeah. So, that was cycling a little bit. I would cycle every two weeks. I mean, I would cycle on day every two weeks. It was keto for 13 out of 14 days. And then I would cycle little partially because I just wanted to overeat on that day for a variety of reasons. So, like you said, I was already a pretty normal size. I didn’t have a whole lot of weight to lose.
Christopher: Yeah, that's tough. To go from there is tough.
Jeremy: Yeah, it always is tough to go from there. So, I just decided -- that was last summer actually. I decided to spend ten weeks seeing how serious I could be about it. And so I got very serious and I did stay keto for, like I said, 13 out of every 14 days. And the reason I did that is because I didn't want to feel like I was hungry every day that I was doing this. I mean, in my mind, that's still the biggest benefit of keto. Not to say there aren't any benefits.
Just that I think the low carb community, the keto community and even the Paleo community itself has done itself a disservice to a large degree by downplaying that. Because honestly, that's the biggest problem and the most painful problem that most people face when they're dieting or they're trying to lose weight, is that they hate being hungry. They hate feeling like they have nothing to eat. It's what everybody knows that they deal with on a daily basis. And to downplay how important of a benefit that is, is just silly.
We all look for these other little like, other benefits. I can't even remember. But throughout the low carb and Paleo community, everybody has been looking for these little magic tricks to make it seem like magic how they work for all. You don't need that, right? It's just it's brilliant how they work because they make you want to eat less and in the meantime give you lot more nutrients and less inflammatory substances.
But how did I do it last summer? Well, I stayed keto 13 out of 14 days just to not feel like I was starving and because I felt it was easier to eat less. But then also I weighed every single thing I ate. I was very particular. I upped my exercise. Essentially, I made sure I was--
Christopher: You did it the old fashioned way. It sounds like the old fashioned way that my dad used to like lose weight.
Jeremy: Yeah. Well, I mean, look, it works.
Christopher: It does work. It's just really painful and it doesn't stick.
Jeremy: I lost 6% body fat in ten weeks.
Christopher: Wow, that's incredible. And so you knew your calorie target for the day and then what, you were restricting every day or you would just…?
Jeremy: I had calorie targets for every one-to two-week period. And so, I was also doing a little bit of intermittent fasting. And I would have one day where I'd intermittent fast all day and then I'd have another day where I would fast for half the day. I knew how much I was working out. I do everything. And so I knew what kind of deficit I wanted every week and I hit it.
Christopher: Interesting. I'm thinking of doing that. So, 158 for me as a mountain biker is definitely on the heavy side. I don't think I'm going to be like winning any uphill battles this year, sure. And so I might do that. I think when you look at some of the studies, this is what you see. When you overfeed, they don't just gain fat. They gain muscle as well as fat. And so it seems like a pretty good strategy that I'm sure many people listening to this will already know about, which is they overfeed for a while and then as you get closer to the first race or the most important race, then something like a ketogenic diet makes it extremely easy to hit a calorie deficit of any type. And if you were to just do that once a week with intermittent fasting, that could be a pretty good strategy for getting to really low body fat.
But then you start running into other things. I don't know. Like my sleep has never been better and I wake up with a boner and all that kind of stuff, all of the things which are important to me other than winning this race. It's like a Mid Pac Hobby Pro, a bike race that I was going to do three of.
Jeremy: Yeah. And I'm not sure, that kind of regime I was on, I'm not sure you'd want to do it for too long because that's a lot of stress on your body too just to beat the calorie deficit all the time like that. But, yeah, it's what bodybuilders have always done. And say what you want about BroScience and bodybuilding, I mean, there are certain things that bodybuilders know and they're very successful at. And part of that is putting on muscle and part of that is cutting fat.
Christopher: Yeah, I know. It's one of my criteria. Like if bodybuilders are doing it, there's probably something in it somewhere. That's like a sign that it warrants further investigation.
[0:35:00]
Jeremy: At least further investigation. There are certain things like, for instance, the number of meals you should eat every day. You know where that came from largely, right, is that bodybuilders, in order to gain weight, have to eat six to eight times a day because they have to eat so many calories when they're already 275 pounds. But they can't physically -- they'll throw up. They can't physically take in enough at each meal. So, they end up eating like six, seven times a day. They wake up in the middle of the night to eat and every time they feel like they're going to throw up. And then somehow they decided that when they're cutting they probably needed to do the same thing. But, of course, it wasn't true. It's never actually played out for the fat loss. In fact, it's probably better not to.
Christopher: And that makes sense to me. I see it from -- I've been keeping a food diary lately just out of interest to see what's going on. In fact, somebody asked me to keep a food diary for that app, one of these Jawbone app things. Maybe I'll do a podcast about that later. The main thing that I notice was that I was regularly hitting 1000 calorie deficit. So, if I go out and do a two, three, four hour bike ride with my buddies then there won't be a lunch. We'll be riding during the most of the middle of the day and at the same time we'll burn between 1500 and two and a half, maybe even 3000 calories on our bike.
And then there's no way, right? And so my eating requirements just to cover the ride are greater than most people's [0:36:24] [Indiscernible] or metabolic rate. So it just creates this enormous hole. And so the normal meal time thing just becomes -- it kind of goes out the window at that point.
Jeremy: Yeah, I know. I completely agree. You asked about like last summer when I, based on my target actually, I went in first and did a DEXA scan with a company in California that does it for $40 and actually did three. I did one at the beginning, one in the middle and one at the end of the ten weeks. that's a very easy way to go figure out essentially what your basal metabolic rate is because most people actually over estimate it especially guys because guys are all higher body fat than we think we are just because most -- DEXA is very accurate because it actually scans your brain as well. And so you actually know what your body fat. Because everybody is like, "Oh, yeah, I'm 15%, 18%." I'm like, "No, you're probably like 25."
Christopher: Right. But, yeah, tell me. The book I think is really interesting in that you've not made a departure from everything you've learned from Paleo. So, I've been listening to a lot of podcasts recently and I listen to one in particular where Dominic Agostino was talking about the ketogenic food that's coming and he was talking about ketogenic Oreos and ketogenic Tortilla chips. I'm like, oh my god, I never thought about this but it's so obvious when you think about it. It's like really easy to make junk food. You've got salt and you've got fat. And if you could hide the ketone salts or esters or whatever it is in there somehow which is probably going to be pretty straightforward then, guess what, you've got ketogenic junk food.
Jeremy: Of course, that's just what happened during the Atkins craze, right?
Christopher: Exactly. That's exactly what I thought.
Jeremy: Atkins junk food. And then when low carb is reborn in the early 2000s, it was the exact same thing. And now, we've got all sorts of Paleo junk food. It's the exact same. You go in any the grocery store now and you'll see essentially "Paleo products" that are essentially junk food. I mean, they're hyperpalatable. What we did -- and look, to be honest, we have a few dessert recipes in the book too because we know that people want them and we're not entirely opposed to them when it comes especially to transitioning from a very bad like standard American diet.
But by and large, 98% of the recipes in the book are -- they're all 100% Paleo. I say 98% because 2% of them are like dessert recipes which you could call hyperpalatable. But the other ones are all entirely real food based and don't have any non-Paleo foods. Because even though I think keto is a great way to limit the amount you eat because it makes you less hungry and it allows you to cut out certain foods without replacing them with others, it doesn't absolve you from having, from getting inflammatory diseases.
And so, if you're eating keto junk food, then A, it's still going to be palatable and you're going to eat more of it. And B, it's going to be inflammatory. So, even if you are losing weight somehow while you're eating keto junk food, it could still cost a lot of other problems. It could still cost a lot of digestive issues or exacerbate the existing ones you have. It still won't make you feel as good. You'll be more stressed. You won't sleep as well, all sorts of issues.
And so, we found it really important to -- we don't call it Paleo keto but that's what it is. And the funny thing is if you look at pretty much -- I don't have a number but I'm guessing like 90% of the very popular diet books that have come out within the past five years -- I hate to name names although I don't know why they'd be ashamed of this.
[0:40:01]
But the very, very popular diet authors out there who have hit the New York Times bestseller list, if you look at their books and what they recommend, it's almost entirely Paleo in every single case. They'll often have one little tweak on it or they'll try to hook you into it because they don't want to be Paleo because they want to establish their own brand and they want to establish their own credibility and authority. Just look at every other diet out there that actually has gained a lot of traction and has a lot of success stories from it, it's people who have taken the Paleo diet, tweak one or two very minor things and packaged it to something new.
So, I'm not afraid to say this is a Paleo version of keto. But it's not what it's about. It's a healthy version of keto. It's a version where you're not eating junk food, you're not eating inflammatory foods that just happen to be low carb high fat to get you into ketosis. It's about doing that so that you can lose weight but also still giving your body nutrient rich low inflammatory food.
Christopher: Yeah. Julie was delighted the first time she saw it, that it was finally a keto book that wasn't, that had vegetables in it. She was like, "We can't do this." You know how many vegetables that we eat. How can we eat this? Food for us becomes incredibly bland and boring without vegetables. If you've not got a vehicle for that fat, it's -- I mean, you talk about hyperpalatability, so you end up on the other end of the scale. Just drinking olive that's like you can't -- there's only so long you can do that.
Jeremy: Yeah. I think The Essential Keto Cookbook is more for people who are, A, serious about losing weight but, B, serious about doing it in a healthy way and not messing up their gut and the rest of their body while they're doing it.
Christopher: Absolutely. So Julie, I have to admit that she doesn't normally use a lot of cookbook. She's like one of those gifted people that just has everything in their brain and you can just give her -- Even [0:41:53] [Indiscernible] you have those days where you've got, you need to go shopping, there's nothing left in the fridge. Some of those days are like her most creative moments. She comes up with some really good stuff. So, I have to kind of batter about a bit to actually do some recipes.
She was actually really pleased with the outcome, to have somebody else's creativity be involved in the process of cooking. I think she really enjoyed that. I have to say it didn't look, the end product didn't look a lot different from what we would eat normally. I take that as a really good sign and it was delicious. But last night we had the pork and cashew stir fry. I would post some pictures on the website. I'll put them in the show notes for this episode so people can see them. But, yeah, it was just totally delicious. And when I looked at the list of ingredients here, its just real food. It's like there's nothing in here that's suspicious at all, which is great. No stevia, no guar gum, nothing like that.
Jeremy: No. I don't think there's a single recipe -- in fact, I'm positive -- that has any of those things in it. And I'm not surprised. I appreciate the compliment but I'm not surprised at all that you had that experience because we'd been with you guys a couple of times now and we eat the exact same way as you at least when we're at home or wherever home is.
Christopher: Yeah. It's a diet that's done really well for us and for 600 or so of the athletes that we've worked with now, so great on high fat, high vegetable, moderate protein, relatively low carb. The amount of carbs seems to vary between people. Yeah, definitely the vegetables seem to be -- I mean, everybody loves vegetables. I think everyone agrees on that part apart from a few weird ketone nut jobs that say you shouldn't eat them or you don't need them. I'm not sure about those people. But everybody else agrees, even the vegan agrees on that, right?
Jeremy: Actually, it's funny but everybody has already agreed on it. Sometimes things get overlooked. What gets overlooked is vitamins. Every single person agrees that vitamins are not only great but entirely essential to a healthy functioning human body. And yet somehow the vast majority of diets don't focus on micronutrients at all, which is just crazy to me.
Christopher: Yeah. I just don't see the problem with -- The Paleo diet, for a regular person, I think you're just fine, looking at some of the food logs I've looked at that do track macronutrients like CRON-O-Meter. Although, I mean, you have to question the accuracy of them but, I guess, it gives you some sort of ballpark. And I think if anything the Paleo diet might be working too well for some people and we're seeing a lot of people with iron overload, a lot of saturated fat, a lot of red meet. It's kind of really great combination for absorbing iron.
And so the male Masters athletes in particular become iron overloaded. And there are probably other examples of that where you can get -- But typically, the problems associated with too many micronutrients are not nearly as problematic as the deficiencies which are devastating.
Jeremy: Oh, yeah. You rarely get too much, like way too much of [0:44:46] [Indiscernible].
Christopher: Yeah. So, the main things I see -- So, it's different. For the athletes I'm talking about, if you've got somebody like me that's doing a 2,500 calorie bike ride then all of those biochemical processes that require micronutrient co-factor and co-enzymes, I mean, you're going to be just using more of those things.
[0:45:03]
Jeremy: Oh, yeah.
Christopher: So, the RDA means nothing to you basically. Then it becomes tough but--
Jeremy: The RDA actually means nothing to anybody. That's just a baseline to actually be alive.
Christopher: So, when I look at my CRON-0-Meter, it's usually I'm like at least 100% sometimes 400% of most of the micronutrients with respect to the RDA. So, yeah, it doesn't mean too much I think. Magnesium, I think, can be difficult. And then maybe calcium.
Jeremy: I think none of those databases are great. I think none of the tracking is great. I mean, I think also our knowledge of what's ideal is so far from complete on any micronutrient. We just have no idea by and large. Because most of the numbers have come from populations of people like in America who are so generally deficient. We established the "baseline." It's funny because when you look at different countries and the baseline for different nutrients varies wildly. It's double for half the nutrients when you look at certain other countries.
Christopher: I'm amazed that the testing is not better either. I know you've done the SpectraCell test. We still don't run that test. And the reason is we can't figure it out. Tommy can't figure it out. It's like this is really clever. I have no idea how it works. I have no idea whether it's valid. This makes sense but you're kind of you're going out on a limb a little bit here and whereas the organic acid and urine is kind of better proven for showing some micronutrient deficiencies but it doesn't show all.
Jeremy: Are you running the NutrEval now?
Christopher: No. It's just too damn expensive. And who can afford? It's like $900 just for the cost of the test, one test. It's just too much. Yeah, I know.
Jeremy: The urinary organic acid is great. It just doesn't measure everything. I mean, it tells you about the most important ones but not everything.
Christopher: No. I can't really tell you whether you're deficient in copper or zinc, for example, based on the organic acid result but there are some other things. If we combine that with the blood chemistry then we could look at some other things. So, for example, some of the enzymes are zinc-dependent like alkaline phosphatase, for example, is a zinc-dependent enzyme. Sometimes we'll see people with very low levels of that enzyme. We're not measuring zinc directly. It's just a surrogate marker and a hint.
And then we look at some of the studies -- Tommy spent half his life just digging up studies at PubMed and he will just completely bury me in a pile of studies that said that all endurance athletes are deficient in zinc. When someone stands in proper laboratory testing in a research setting, then they always find zinc deficiency. So, we kind of piece these pieces of evidence together. If you're an endurance athlete, listen to this, you're probably zinc-deficient especially if you've got low testosterone because you need, and immune deficiency because you need zinc for those things too.
Jeremy: I think it's true for a lot of things. I mean, they've done studies for like marathon runners who train everyday out in the sun in very sunny places and they're always vitamin D deficient, like 90% across the board. It's crazy. How could they be vitamin D deficient? But they are for a variety of reasons. I think we're only two to three, two to four years away from having so much good, so much cheap testing with good AI behind it that it's going to be mind blowing, in the very least or the very most five years, how much we'll be able to tell from very simple, probably just blood test.
Christopher: Right. Yeah, I know.
Jeremy: Or maybe urine.
Christopher: Yeah. That's probably what I should be doing. Rather than talking to people one at a time I probably should be working for some company somewhere with venture capital money developing some algorithm that just take a blood chemistry. But at the moment, talking to Bryan Walsh -- Bryan Walsh is someone who I've mentioned several times in the podcast. He's been a really great teacher to me. And a lot of it is just still locked up in his head. It's an art and it's a science of interpretation. It's not like you can really program an algorithm that would do what he does. It's quite tough.
Jeremy: Yeah. Although I think the algorithms won't take very long [0:48:56] [Indiscernible] because AI is coming along so fast that you don't even have to program -- you have to program hot and cold inputs into it and then eventually it just learns. When you're putting up hot and cold inputs into a good AI you can see everything. In fact, my friends had been talking about this. He's not into AI. I mean, he loves his technologies in terms of like he really is into it just intellectually and loves it but he's not in the field.
But his wife had -- I forget. It's an immune like CIVS or something. I can't remember. It's an immune condition. But his wife was misdiagnosed for like six or seven years despite the fact they were going to tons of doctors. They thought she was celiac at first. They thought she was other things. And none of it turned out to be true. It turns out that she had this particular condition which is very rare but the typical diagnosis takes, I think, three to four years because they misdiagnosed it so much. But it's crazy because once [0:49:53] [Indiscernible] tie everything including all the test data but then find a way to actually have definitive hot and cold inputs like, okay, did the test data actually result in this? What does this person actually have? What's actually going on in the body?
[0:50:09]
Jeremy: What's actually going on in the body? When we're actually able to do all that and input that into AI systems, it's going to be mind blowing. In fact, my friend Jeff, entrepreneur out at Atlanta, he knows Daniel Amen pretty well. I think he used to work very closely with IBM, so he introduced Dr. Daniel Amen to the CEO of Watson, which is run separately from IBM. And they spent, I think, three or four months last year running all 130,000 or so brain scans that Dr. Amen has done in his career and from his labs through Watson.
And I don't know what the results are. I haven't talked with him since they got done with it. But I can imagine that Watson -- In fact, Dr. Amen himself said that as much as he had discovered in his career, he thinks that Watson in a few months would be able to discover far more links, far more just diagnosis that are possible for looking at those brain scans.
Christopher: I thought that I was going to get done out of this job by the doctors deciding that they're going to do diet and lifestyle coaching rather than writing prescriptions. In the end, it may be that everybody is done out of the job because you just go to the lab, get blood drawn and then you get back your personalized plan sent to you from a computer and you just follow it and it works. That's a possibility. That's a real possibility.
Jeremy: I think it's an inevitability. I don't know the exact time frame but I think it's inevitable. Because you think about it. It's nothing that that's magical when you think about it, right? You just got to have enough inputs about knowing what's going on in your blood or your urine or whatever and a computer just has to be able to match those up to, "Does this definitively indicate X, Y or Z?" and then you also have enough inputs to say, "Okay, here's a regime, did this definitively solve this issue or not." And once you have enough of those inputs in computers, it's basical logic problem.
Christopher: I'm sure a lot of it is going to be frame the data because it's so hard. It's just so locked up. When I get back the results of an organic acids test, I would love to have all that information in a database somewhere so that I could run advance queries like when is the last time I saw a marathon runner with B6 deficiency that also had an elevated [0:52:17] [Indiscernible]? Like I just can't answer those questions at the moment.
Unless it happened last week, just because I forgot. And they send the results to me in this PDF document and that there's no way for me to -- I need to spend some time passing all these things and loading them into a database. But, of course, that's my very long to-do list.
Jeremy: Well, not that just but we need everybody to be doing it. I mean, I realistically think at some point. I mean, everybody has got to have their data loaded -- everybody is scared of this because everybody is scared of their data getting stolen.
Christopher: Right, exactly.
Jeremy: At the same time, can you imagine if all of the data from the past, even just 20 years, were in centralized databases that computers and AI could analyze and what you could learn from that?
Christopher: Oh, yeah. I mean, you'd be able to spot insulin resistance decades before it actually manifests itself in symptoms. And that's what frustrates me a lot. Some of the doctors I respect very much, on their podcast, they always talk about, well, if the patient is presenting this such and such a symptom then we'll treat and we'll look at it. I'm like, it starts going wrong long before. Like how many cells have to go wrong before a tissue becomes dysfunctional, before an organ becomes dysfunctional, before you see symptoms? I think the answer is a lot.
But yeah, I know at the moment, we've only just sorted that out so that our chemistry, you go, you place an order in our website and then we send you a requisition form for Quest it is now rather than LabCorp. It used to be Lab Corp. now it's Quest. You go directly to Quest and then the results come back and they get automatically imported into our blood chemistry software which does do some analysis but it's quite prude. It looks at patterns that span multiple markers and over multiple tests and then it spits out this report.
But it certainly not AI. It's nothing that sophisticated. But I was just delighted that I could make the whole system work end to end without anybody, A, visiting a doctor that didn't want to help. There wasn't interest in helping someone with a performance goal. There's no ICD-10 code for ones to qualify for Boston. No one is going to order that blood chemistry. So, there's that problem and then not having to transpose all the numbers and worry about fat finger errors and all this kind of stuff when we put the data back into the software.
That's like literally last week that I've been able to sort that out and I feel like I'm working with the company that's pretty cutting edge in this and it's amazing how primitive it is when you consider what is possible given the technology that exist in the world.
Jeremy: What's the other company that was like -- the company, there's a woman in Silicon Valley who found -- I can't remember the name.
Christopher: Oh, Theranos.
Jeremy: Yeah, Theranos. There you go. They're pretty cutting edge in that stuff.
[0:54:59]
Christopher: Yeah, I know, so Theranos. So, this technology exists in the UK as well. There's a company called MediChecks. So, if you're in the UK, we've been ordering blood chemistries for people and the way that works is you get a finger stick test that arrives as a home kit. So, you just stick your finger with a lancet and then you just put a few drops of blood into a vial and then you send that into the lab via FedEx.
And I've done one of those blood chemistries and it did work but they're extremely problematic because when you stick your finger with a lancet there's a good chance that you're going to lance a bunch of red blood cells and then the contents, all the sodium and potassium and all that all kind of mix and turn into one of kind of big mess. And then they reject the sample. And I'm not entirely sure.
So, this is speculation but I think that Theranos are being plagued with some of those same problems. And so they're still going to be stuck with the phlebotomists eventually. And so what I really want is a mobile phlebotomist. I want the Uber of phlebotomy. So just like on your app on your phone, okay, I want to order this blood chemistry. Ten minutes later, a guys turns up with a kit to draw your blood and it's done in two minutes. That seems very doable to me as well. I've really yet to come across a company that does that just as I've described it.
Jeremy: Interesting. Do you think that technologically [0:56:10] [Indiscernible] or do something that wouldn't lance a few blood cells in the process?
Christopher: Yeah. I guess, no one solved that problem yet. I guess, these problems they just follow the money. Maybe there's no money in it and that's why no one is interested in it. I'm not sure.
Jeremy: Well, Theranos already opened up like -- Arizona, I think, is the first state to really have like they have labs in all the Walgreens now, which is you look at their prices and half the prices are like $3.
Christopher: Right. Really, really cheap. I'm pretty sure that step, that's going to happen really soon. The blood chemistry is already pretty cheap. Just because so many people are running them, just the economy of scale is just going to bring those prices down to pretty much nothing.
Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely.
Christopher: Well, I think we better end this podcast by you asking me what I have for breakfast.
Jeremy: What did you have for breakfast?
Christopher: I'm glad you asked. I had kale and chive egg muffins. I'm not kidding. Yeah, they're from your cookbook. Julie made them last night and it was super convenient. So, I'm moving today. The movers are here as we speak, as I'm recording this podcast. I better hang up. Yeah, Julie made these muffins last night. Totally there's no -- there's prosciutto in there and there's eggs and there's a little bit of coconut milk and chives and some curly kale, six eggs. They're all real foods. And we were all able to have a proper breakfast this morning before the movers come without any cooking or anything. So, it's absolutely great.
Jeremy: They are super convenient, yeah. And people are liking the cookbook. I was going to say very quickly. It hit top 600 in Kindle Books today, so it's doing pretty well.
Christopher: Oh, wow. Fantastic. So, it's The Essential Keto Cookbook: 124 Ketogenic Recipes (Including a Keto Meal Plan and Food List), which is a thing that Julie will never give people. She's like, "No. I'm going to teach you. You don't need a meal plan." But everybody wants a meal plan. So, I think it's good that you're giving what people want.
Jeremy: Absolutely.
Christopher: So, where's the place for people to find out more about you? Tell us about your magazine.
Jeremy: You can still find most of what we do at Paleomagazine.com which is the website we still have. And, yeah, you can find out everything there. Or if you want to check out the cookbook, just Google, you can Google it or you can go to Amazon and find The Essential Keto Cookbook, pretty fast. If you look at Essential Keto Cookbook, it will come up first.
Christopher: Yeah, I know. It comes up for me in Amazon when I just search for Louise's name. But, of course, I'll link to it in the show notes for this episode. I'll post some pictures of the kale and chive egg muffins which are very, very good.
Jeremy: They are very convenient. That's the best thing about this. They're very good too but they're very convenient. You can take them with you. You can put them in little Tupperware, whatever, and just have them on the go.
Christopher: Yeah, perfect for mountain bike races, living a van life going to bike races.
Jeremy: Right.
Christopher: Excellent. Thank you so much for your time, Jeremy. I really appreciate you and I'm hoping that I can get you back on the show again soon because I think you're great. I learned so much from you and I value you as a mentor. So, thank you very much.
Jeremy: Awesome. Thanks, Chris.
Christopher: Cheers, Jeremy.
[0:58:52] End of Audio
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