Written by Christopher Kelly
May 19, 2016
[0:00:00]
Christopher: Hello. Welcome to the Nourish Balance Thrive podcast. My name is Christopher Kelly. Today I'm joined by Jordan Reasoner. Hi, Jordan.
Jordan: Hey, Chris. It's good to be here, man. Thanks for having me.
Christopher: I am super excited to have you. Jamie is the CEO of Nourish Balance Thrive. She's the medical doctor that I work with. I know that she's going to be wetting her pants a little bit to know that you're on because you have been the guy that we've been stalking since the very beginning to try and figure out how to turn a functional medicine practice into a business. She was like "Why can't you get that Jordan Reasoner guy? He obviously knows how to do it. Just talk to him and then we'll figure out." And now you're finally on my podcast. I'm really excited about that. Thanks for coming on.
Jordan: You're welcome. I love that story.
Christopher: Yeah, I know. This is going to be great.
But before we get into that, I really wanted to talk to you about your experience with the SCD diet and how it would be that a mechanical engineer would know more about how to fix your gut than a gastroenterologist. So why don't you talk a little bit about your background?
Jordan: Thank you for that, by the way. It's humbling. I'm grateful.
Christopher: It's true though, isn't it? I mean I went to a gastroenterologist. He was bloody useless whereas the stuff that you've been putting out for years is brilliant.
Jordan: Well, I'm flattered. Thank you. That means a lot. I think a lot of times I'm still just that 20-year-old kid that was sick, having diarrhea 15 times a day. So it's always really humbling for me to be here 12 years later just helping people with their gut health still. I just feel like I'm still that guy sometimes so it's good.
I had health issues my whole life. I feel like a lot of people that I work with can relate to that, just random health stuff, your whole life. And then at some point in your life it boils over. For me that was back in college. I was in a really, really challenging engineering college. My mom passed away of cancer during that time. After that everything just spiraled out of control to the point where I had diarrhea 15 times a day, chronic fatigue, hard to get out bed. My body was falling apart. The doctors didn't know what was going on. They tried a bunch of different medications. Nothing worked.
Finally, I begged them to give me a colonoscopy. I begged my GI doctor to rule out cancer and colitis and things like that. When they got out of the colonoscopy they woke me up and they said, "Everything looked great. We'll send you some results in a few weeks from the lab." They've done endoscopies as well, by the way. They took some biopsies and stuff.
So three weeks later I get the pamphlet in the mail. It's got a handwritten sticky note. "Hey, Jordan, you have celiac disease. You shut eat gluten-free and you'll be fine." It had some gluten-free pamphlets in there. I swear they're from the '90s.
Christopher: That was awesome.
Jordan: This is 2007. I swear they're from the '90s. It just said, "Don't eat bread." I went gluten-free. I thought this is finally going to be the solution for me. I went gluten-free, very strict to the point where we ended up tearing out countertops, bring in new countertops, getting all new pots and pans, just super paranoid about gluten contamination. Nothing helped me feel better. Still it was the 15 times diarrhea. I was like 110 pounds. I'm 190 now.
At the end of the day I went gluten-free, soy-free, corn-free, dairy-free, chocolate-free, sugar-free, blah-blah-blah-blah-blah. Nothing worked for me. Finally an alternative practitioner just said, "Jordan, I don't know what to do with you but as a last resort, read this book called Breaking the Vicious Cycle. It's by Elaine Gottschall. I don't know what else to have you do."
So I read the book. I followed this specific carbohydrate diet. The book was all crazy. It's a great book but it doesn't help you to actually start the diet. I was very confused about how to do the diet. So I did a lot of research, made my own notes, started the diet. In seven days my diarrhea stopped for the first time in years. So I knew I was finally on to something. I finally had some hope.
It was a really pivotal turning moment for me because there was a point in time where I was 22 and I had a one-year-old son, I was so sick I stayed up late and wrote my will. I was 22. I didn't have a will. So I had to write my will. So I handwrote my will and gave it to my wife in the morning. She was like "No. That's not okay. You need to figure this out."
So finding that diet, I believe, saved my life. It's been a long road since then. Of course there's been a lot of functional medicine help along the way. I had multiple gut infections. I had a parasite called Strongyloides.
Christopher: I've never even heard of that word. Blimey. That is an unusual one.
Jordan: I was able to kill that with an antiparasitic called Ivermectin which is a single day nuclear bomb which I really appreciated. So that was good. So multiple gut infections, adrenal fatigue. I've had tons and tons of issues that I've corrected along the way to get where I'm now but it really started with that diet.
[0:05:11]
Steve Wright is my best friend in the world. We both had gut issues together. We said, "Man, we got to help people with this." So we started the blog, SCD Lifestyle, to help people specifically with that diet. In the eight years since then 99% of the people that come to the website don't know what SCD is. It's just gotten so much bigger. So we're rebranding everything right now to The Healthy Gut Project. The new domain name is going to be healthgut.com. We're kind of switching things around a little bit but that's how we got to where we are today, just trying to help a lot of people who are struggling with the same stuff that we went through.
Christopher: That's phenomenal. So how many people do you think you've helped through the SCD Lifestyle at this point?
Jordan: That's a great question. Our active email list right now is 250,000 people but when you factor in people that have unsubscribe over the years I think we've gotten maybe 400,000 email addresses over the last eight years if that's something that you used to measure people that we've helped with. Traffic is always a good thing to talk about too. To me getting an email address is more of a confirmation that hopefully we helped them with our content. We've got tens and thousands of customers in our company as well.
Christopher: That's amazing. I get emails like that, probably not as many as you but I've definitely had some. People have said, "Well, I heard about something on your podcast. I did it and it worked. Thanks very much. I don't need your help anymore." That's like the most amazing thing in the world, isn't it, to help someone without ever really talking to them.
Jordan: It still blows my mind every single day when we get those. The weirdest thing too is when people recognize you in the airport or something. It's so funny because I guess we live in this internet world where sometimes it doesn't seem real what we do day to day. I'm sure you can relate. I remember one time I was in the airport in Arizona. I was in Phoenix Airport. I was just jamming away in my headphones on a layover, just kind of probably tired from lots of traveling and just trying to get home to my family.
This woman was like "Jordan! You're Jordan from SCD Lifestyle." Within 30 seconds we're talking about her poop. I live in this weird world where I get poop selfies emailed to me from people. People talk to me about their poop within 30 seconds and meeting me in an airport. So it's kind of fun.
Christopher: You weren't expecting that when you went to university to study mechanical engineering.
Jordan: That's right.
Christopher: That's phenomenal though. What was it that made you shift gears as it were? So I guess your overarching goal was like mine when you started SCD Lifestyle, and that was just to help people. What was it that made you realize you've gotten to the point where you couldn't help anymore people without doing something different?
Jordan: We started doing one-on-one consulting in 2013. We opened up some time slots. People have been asking us to do it for a long time. We hadn't done it for four years yet in our business. We had gone to the Kalish Mentorship with Dr. Dan Kalish and done a lot of study in those areas but we're still a little hesitant to open the floodgates. We sent one email out to our community saying that we had decided to do one-on-one consulting in a functional medicine realm.
We're immediately booked out a month with one email. In the next year we had over 600 clients. It was really, really powerful and beautiful that we're able to impact a lot of people's lives and help people get the functional medicine testing that you and I both know that people need to get, that most practitioners can't even get for their patients or won't get for their patients. And just creating a lot of change, helping people with some standard functional medicine stuff, gut infections, adrenal fatigue, organic acid stuff. It was overwhelming. We were spending so much time a week trying to create this big change with our website and write blog posts and content as you know, but also seeing clients 10 hours a week. The waiting list got out to three months. It was just over whelming for us. We felt like we're making less change in the world.
At that point in time we pivoted. We gave all of our clients to some great functional practitioners. Brie and Stephanie, they took over our client load. And then we decided to start the Practitioner Liberation Project to help more practitioners build on their health practices so that they could impact more and more lives because at the end of the day we almost were like the reluctant heroes starting our practice at that time because people just couldn't get the test and the services that they need that so many great functional healers know how to do. They just couldn't find each other.
[0:10:03]
At the end of the day starting the Practitioner Liberation Project was like, well, if I can work with someone one-on-one, great, but if I can work with a practitioner to build their practice and help them help a thousand people, that just has a lot bigger impact for us. I really like business. I really like marketing. It's my favorite things. It's been fun teaching practitioners that stuff because they don't learn in school. It's unfortunate.
Christopher: Absolutely. I know Brie Wieselman. She's local to us here in Santa Cruz. We've become friends. We spend quite a lot of time together. She's a wizard. She's a gut wizard. If you've got a really messed up gut then I couldn't recommend anyone more highly than Brie Wieselman. She's amazing. She knows so much stuff about herbs. It's just unbelievable. She's useless at self-promotion. There's nothing to say that just because you know everything there is to know about the gut that you also know about business and marketing. It just doesn't work like that.
I think what you're doing is absolutely incredible, shifting to the next gear almost and helping practitioners help other people, and that way extending your reach. It's just such a cool thing.
Jordan: Thank you so much, man. It feels good. It's really fun. I feel like there's a big problem in the world right now. We have an abundance of really skilled healers on one hand and on the other hand we have, unfortunately, an overwhelming abundance of people with chronic illness in the world, and those people can't find each other. The people that are sick are not getting the help that they need locally in the old school model of local doctor, primary care physician. So we need to help these people find each other. We need to help these practitioners and these sick people get together and make the change that they can make together. That's the biggest thing that I see that's happening right now is the more and more we can do that, we can bring those people together, the more and more we can help heal people and also prevent healers from having to go back to their day job and not do what they're here to do in the world.
Christopher: I can relate to so much of what you went through. I followed almost exactly the same path. I wasn't as sick as you but I've been through that same process of figuring out what was wrong with me and then being so revelated by the discovery of functional medicine. I wanted to quit my job and start a new business. Now because we have so many technical podcasts, especially with Tommy, we have more and more practitioners coming to us asking for help on how we do stuff. I can see the progression might be somewhat similar.
There are some of the things I realized I was making some terrible mistake with trying to run this business that I only recognized once I did your Practitioner Liberation Project training course. I realized that the reason we've been so successful or successful as we were is because we've done some things right by accident. I think the main one was being specific and choosing a niche. I'm a mountain biker. Most of the people that we work with are athletes especially men in their 40s. I can kind of visualize what my kind of average client looks like. I feel like I really know them.
Do you agree that that's important? Can you talk a little bit about how people listening to this who are practitioners can find kind of their niche or their special person that they want to talk to?
Jordan: I think that's the most important thing. I think if you don't niche in in the next three years you'll probably run out of clients and patients. There are some alarming stats that we're starting to find like 50% of naturopaths never see a patient which is really disheartening. 60% of acupuncturists go back to their previous career after three years in practice. And yet at the same time, as of last year, there were 3 billion people online and we know that there's another 3 billion people that are still coming online in the next five years or so depending on which study you read, which projections you read. So we have a massive amount of people coming online.
But at the end of the day most practitioners who are skilled healers, whether they're holistic nutritionist, personal trainers, MDs, DOs, OBGYNs, you name it, functional medicine practitioners, they to go through the old school model of like "I'm going to hang my sign up and I'm going to be Dr. Chris, M.D., and I'm just going to hang my sign up on the street." One of the things that we're starting to see is when people did that in an actual town that typically worked and they were the local practitioner. There might've been a few depending on how big the town was. If it was a big town obviously there were lots of local practitioners.
People are doing that same kind of model online. They're just hanging their sign up online like "I'm Dr. Chris from naturalwellness.com." We have to flip the script on that a little bit because if you do that old model of hanging your sign up, that's what I call it, you're going to put on an invisible lab coat.
[0:15:12]
That's kind of our nickname for it is you're a skilled healer, you know what you're doing, you can create a big change in this world but by hanging your sign up like that you put on an invisible lab coat. The people who need your help can't find you. They're desperately searching for you and they can't find you.
That's the challenge that we have is that most practitioners don't learn business and marketing because they've, rightfully so, spent a lot of time learning how to become a skilled healer which is their important skill. As we look at this we want to teach more practitioners to take ownership of their business and marketing because if they don't they will be washed out, they will have a client or patient problem in the next three to five years.
If you want to stand out in a sea of those practitioners who are just hanging their signs you have to niche in. What that means is, and I tell this cheesy analogy all the time but I think it's the best way to drive home my point, the way things are moving now, each person dealing with chronic illness typically has one primary symptom or complaint that they're trying to get rid of and solve. Sure, they might have a laundry list of symptoms but there's one that keeps them up at night. There's one that pops in their head as soon as they wake up in the morning and open their eyes. There's one that they think about all day in the back of their mind when they're trying to do their job or be a parent or be a spouse. That number one symptom is typically what they're going to seek a solution for.
Let me just give a little analogy here. Let's say I have chronic right pinky finger pain. That's super weird. I'm just giving you a funny analogy here. I've got chronic right pinky finger pain. I'm a 40-years-old male. I've got a beautiful wife, two kids, dogs, white picket fence, a stable job, but my pinky pain is starting to really bother me when I type all day at work. It's starting to affect my work. Let's say it's midnight. I can't sleep because of that throbbing pain in my pinky finger. I'm totally making this out just to really drive my point here.
Let's say that I look over at my wife and she's sleeping. I give her a kiss and I get out of bed. It's dark. The dogs are all confused. They come downstairs with me. I grab a glass of orange juice. I'm sitting down at my computer. I'm just sick and tired of not being able to sleep because of this pain. I've been taking these pills that are supposed to help me that my local practitioner prescribed, just some painkillers. They're not helping. Anti-inflammatory, they're not helping.
I sit down in my computer. It's dark out. I haven't turned any of the lights on. I opened up Google. Chris, what am I going to type into Google? What do you think I'm going to type into Google?
Christopher: Pain right pinky finger.
Jordan: That's right. I'm not going to type in Dr. Joe natural wellness or Chris alternative practitioner, holistic nutrition or whatever which if you're a practitioner and you're listening to this, what is your domain name, what does your website show up as on Google. Think about that against what is this man typing into Google at midnight when he's trying to get rid of his pinky finger pain. You know that, Chris. I mean you're going to type in how to stop pinky finger pain, root causes of pinky finger pain, get rid of pinky finger pain, blah-blah-blah.
If you can imagine that I'm that guy and the first thing that shows up on Google is getridofpinkyfingerpain.com -- I mean I would never recommend that domain, it's too long. Let's just say that it says getridofpinkyfingerpain.com. I'm like "What is this?" and I click on it and then the website pops up and there's a guy there and he's like "Hey, I'm Dr. Chris. For the last years I've been helping people with right pinky finger pain. I specialize in it. I've seen thousands of people. I can help you naturally get rid of your chronic pinky finger pain. Typically there are five root causes. If you want, right now you can book a one-hour consultation with me for $250. I'm going to be able to help you troubleshoot the five most common root causes of pinky finger pain. I will get you started on a program to solve this program."
If you can imagine that I'm that guy, my eyes are going to be as big as the moon and I'm going to be like "Yes! I found my place. I found a solution." I might even go wake my wife up. I'm so excited that I booked a consultation with somebody who knows what the heck is going on with my pinky when no one else did. If you can imagine that, that's how real human beings feel when they have real chronic health issues like diarrhea, like migraines, like brain fog, like anxiety, like adrenal fatigue, like IBS, and they find a website that's all about them and their specific issue and there's a credible practitioner behind it who's got experience in that area, in that niche.
That process flow that I just walked you guys through is how people are seeking out solutions to their problems in the world today. The only difference that's going to change over the next three years is more and more and more it's going to be on their cell phones instead of late at night on their computers at a desk.
[0:20:05]
So if you think about your current website, your current business model, your current marketing around you and your practice and who you are -- I will tell you that I've worked with a lot of practitioners. I will tell you, one of the first things that I do, Chris, is I say, "Let me see your website," and they tell me their website URL and I pull it up. Typically the first thing they talk about on their website is like "Hi, I'm Dr. So and so. I've got this credential and this credential and this credential and I'm trained in this and this and this. Here are the things I can help you with," list of 20 symptoms that's pretty much everything in the world. "By the way, I've been doing this for 20 years and I'm really good at it. So come book a consultation with me. Here are my 15 different packages you can buy."
How different is that versus what I described with the pinky finger pain situation? That's the difference. That's niching in and that's how you stand out in a sea of practitioners who are hanging their sign. The number one way I call someone out on clinical hanging their sign is when their website is all about them and all about what they do and their credentials and how they can help versus having their website be all about the person that they're trying to attract, me, the guy that's up at midnight looking on Google. If it's all about me, the guy up and looking at Google, then you're going to stand out, then you're going to have a waiting list of clients and patients like we did, then you will never run out of clients/patients again in your practice, and that's the big difference.
Christopher: I can see exactly how this works because I've seen kind of both sides of the equation. From the practitioner's standpoint, so for someone like Jamie who's a and medical doctor, she's thinking if you just want to produce ATP and you're interested in mitochondrial function, well this could help anyone who's feeling tired. Who's tired today? Everybody. So I can help literally everyone. I've just spent $270,000 on my education so people should probably care about my education. I should put that on the website.
You're right. This is just an exercise in empathy, just think about what the person is thinking when they're doing that Google search. I think also the practitioner, the doctor, is probably worried that by niching in that tight. If you're really going to concentrate on right pinky finger pain, then how the hell am I ever going to find enough people with that problem to help them? Of course the internet has changed everything. We're not talking about hanging up a sign in your local town that says I just deal with right finger pinky pain. We're talking about hanging up a sign on the internet which the potential audience is just so much bigger.
Jordan: Exactly. I want to talk that for a second. You brought up some great points. First of all I want to add some empathy and I just want to acknowledge all the practitioners listening to this right now. I know that most people who are listening to you, Chris, are probably 99% better than most doctors, GI doctors, all types of practitioners who are just standard western medicine because they are listening to you, they're studying this stuff, I would say even just telling people to go gluten-free is almost 99% better than most practitioners.
Christopher: Right. Yeah. I mean that's my three-step program is don't eat gluten, don't eat dairy, fire your endocrinologist. Your program is going to help a lot of people.
Jordan: So I wanted to take a second and just acknowledge that if you're listening to this right now you are an extremely skilled healer and you could help a lot of people in this world. I know that if I walked in to see you and I had chronic migraines or if I had celiac disease or if I wanted to lose weight or if I wanted to get pregnant you could help me with any of those things, I know that. I just wanted to take a second to acknowledge that. The problem is the more you try to help everyone the more you help no one because the more you help everyone the more you're just falling into that invisible lab coat hanging your sign syndrome, and the more you niche in the more you help a specific group of people, the more you're going to have unlimited clients. I have two stories to share about that.
One is SCD Lifestyle, our original niche when we started that blog was people who had read the book Breaking the Vicious Cycle and who were confused about how to start the SCD diet. If you look in Google keyword tool at the time back then there was like 5,000 searches a month for SCD diet. That is so tiny, guys. We talked about right pinky finger pain. The SCD diet might actually be a smaller niche than pinky finger pain which is a joke niche that I made up. There are probably more searches for pinky finger pain than there were for SCD diet.
What I can tell you is that we crashed that niche. We nailed it and we helped a lot of people at that niche. We organically became gut health experts out of that. Now we have 300,000 or 400,000 people hitting our site a month coming to a website called SCD Lifestyle. They don't know what that means but the fact that our content and our organic reach has grown because of the impact we had way back when we were super tiny niche. So now we have a problem of abundance. We're rebranding our company to acknowledge our growth.
[0:25:04]
So we're rebranding our company as the Healthy Gut Project. We have the domain named healthygut.com. We've grown into that. You know what I'm saying? We've grown in to be able to help people with just generic constipation, just generic diarrhea and become a gut health resource on the web. Originally it was people who had read this book and were trying to start the SCD diet. So there's unlimited growth potential once you do niche in.
The other thing I wanted to tell you is you brought up a great point, Chris. Let's say you specifically choose women between 40 and 50 with rheumatoid arthritis. I can tell you right now. There are about 1.5 million people just in the US alone that have RA. Most of them are women from the stats that I've looked at. So I guarantee you right now, if you started a niche where you were helping women 40 to 50 with RA, we could probably go out on Facebook alone and find 100,000 of those women to put ads for your website about RA specifically.
So when you think about niching in and having that [0:26:03] [Indiscernible] so you can't help enough people, I have to debunk that because no matter what condition you choose there are going to be at least hundreds of thousands of people that are just on Facebook alone. By the way, it's like 1.7 billion people on Facebook right now in the world. We can go find your niche. There are hundreds of thousands of people who fit your niche profile on Facebook right now, let alone the Google organic search which I talked about earlier.
I just wanted to dispel some myths here. The more you help everyone the more you're helping no one. You're just hanging your sign and you're doing a disservice for all the people who desperately need your help. I know that you can't help everyone but it's not about that. It's about niching in so that you can stand out in a sea of practitioners who are all building online businesses and online practices websites. For you to have this unlimited getting clients problem where you have a waiting list and stuff, that only happens when you niche in.
Chris, I know you had a big explosion when you really owned your niche. I'd love to hear you kind of give some feedback on your experience with that as well.
Christopher: There's a support group that goes with the training course that I did. There are a lot of people trying to choose the niche. For me it was frustrating. It's like it's you, it's you, you idiot. You are your own niche. You're basically the person that you want to help. It's you.
Now I get this amazing experience. Every time I do a one-on-one call with someone I get that kind of butterflies in my tummy feeling like a first date that's gone really well because you're basically talking to the mirror image of yourself and you know that person really well already. They got all the same problems as you. They're probably about the same age as you. They got the same number of kids. They're interested in bikes. They live in Colorado. They're starting to get a bit of iron overload. They have problems with fatigue. They don't sleep well. I really know that person really well. It was simple for me to choose my niche because it was me.
If I'm the practitioner listening to this now how do you do it? How do you get people to choose their niche?
Jordan: That's a good question. I mean inside of our Practitioner Liberation Project we have extensive weeks of worksheets and processes to go through and choose your niche, choose your business name, your URL, your tagline, all that stuff so that it's specifically for that group of ideal client that you have decided upon.
I can give some tips right now which is there's a couple basic questions to ask. One question that we always like to start people off with is to ask the question what's your personal journey. A lot of practitioners like yourself and me, Chris, we've been through personal health struggles. A lot of times that's kind of the personal hero's journey, the personal trial and tribulation that you went through that's your passion, that's why you were inspired to be a healer, that's why you went to school. Maybe it was a family member that had cancer or an autoimmune disease or something you struggled with.
Many times answering the question who is your ideal client starts with your personal journey to health. For example, it's been a lot easier for Steve and I to help a 33-year-old mother with gut health problems than it would've been for us to help a 50-year-old woman with rheumatoid arthritis. Why? Because we overcame gut health issues. Steve had raging IBS and I was having diarrhea 15 times a day from my gut being destroyed by celiac disease.
So if you're someone who's overcome RA and that's your passion, it's your personal journey, then you should help people with RA. If you're someone who lost 100 pounds, help people lose weight. If you're somebody who is an avid mountain bike enthusiast, help people who do mountain biking. Think about what you're passionate about in your life and start there.
The second thing to ask yourself is are they ready to change. There's this old joke we always hear. It's easier to change someone's religion than it is to change their diet. Sometimes people just aren't ready to change.
[0:30:08]
If we're looking at choosing a niche and saying, "Oh, ideal client possibility, one is a 20-year-old kid in college with rheumatoid arthritis versus ideal client who's a 33-year-old mother of two kids with rheumatoid arthritis." Again, don't get caught in the trap of "Well, I need to help everyone. I want to help." I get that but in this exercise we're choosing an ideal client so it's important to think about who cares more about their health.
I could tell you, when I was 20 I was having diarrhea 15 times a day but I just kept eating pizza and working my face off at engineering college, not sleeping, studying, partying on the weekends, drinking beer. I was not committed to changing my health at the time in my life but now I have two kids. I care way more about my health now than I ever did when I was 20 because I want to watch my kids grow up. What if you knew that a 33-year-old mother of two kids was willing to invest 400% more financially than a 20-year-old kid in college?
Those are things you want to think about. Those are two basic questions just to start to kind of get in orbit of where you want to go when you're asking who is my ideal client. What was your personal health journey? What brought you to becoming a healer? What lit your passion? Did you have a personal struggle with autoimmune disease Hashimoto's, gut health issues? What was it? Look at that first and start to ask along those same lines. Who can I personally identify with? For example, Chris, with you, you're going to identify a lot more with a male between 30 and 45 who's an avid mountain biker because that's who you are. You'll be able to emotionally connect with them on a much deeper level versus an 80-year-old woman. These are the types of things that we could think about.
Now, there are other things to think about like if you're already in practice, let's say you already have a physical practice and you're seeing patients at a regular basis, start thinking about who do you really get fired up about. When you come in and you see their intake paperwork and you're looking at it and you're like "Yes! I got someone with brain fog. I love people with brain fog," you just know you're going to change that person's life. Maybe conversely you'd get someone who wants to lose 10 pounds and you're like "Crap! This person wants to lose 10 pounds. Oh, man."
Christopher: And they're like 5'9" and 140 pounds.
Christopher: You're going to know. We all have those moments where you can just look and say, "Yeah." I get super passionate about this type of person. This person, I just want to walk out of the room but I don't because I'm a skilled healer and I know what I can do. Those are questions to really ask yourself when you're starting to choose your niche because when you choose a niche you will stand out and you will do well and you will have a waiting list of people. At the end of the day you want it to be somebody you're passionate about helping because if you choose to help women with fertility issues you're going to spend all of your time helping women with fertility issues.
You want to make sure that something you really care about and something you're really passionate about because, again, imagine I'm that woman and it's midnight and I find your website, and if you're on there just being passionate about helping women with fertility issues, I'm going to connect with you on an emotional level that is 10 times deeper than if you were just holistic nutritionist, Jill, and I booked an appointment with you. I'm going to come in there respecting you, loving you, and we're going to have a good time. I'm going to have better compliance and be happier. I'm going to be willing to pay you more. All those things happen because you're talking directly to me and I can feel your passion and I can feel what you've been through in your life.
When I help people diarrhea or autoimmune disease, I've been there. I mean I have been there. I've been in the drugs they've been on. I know what it's like. I know what the side effects are like. I've done it all. If I'm trying to help somebody lose 50 pounds, I have no idea what that's like. I was underweight. It took me eight years to gain 80 pounds back.
Christopher: That's incredible, isn't it?
Jordan: I can't connect with those people on an emotional level. I could probably help them, no doubt about it, but I don't have that passion. I don't know what it's like to walk up stairs with an extra 50 pounds on that I'm not supposed to have. I don't know what it's like to have my clothes not fit in that way. I don't have that emotional connection. I can't be in their head.
I'm throwing these examples out so you can kind of grasp what it's like to start to feel the ideal clients who can work best for you. What you don't want to do is you don't want to choose an ideal client based on finance. You don't want to choose an ideal client because you think you're going to can make more money. You don't want to choose an ideal client because you think there are more of them. You don't want to choose an ideal client because you feel like no one else is a serving those people right now because I guarantee you, there's somebody out there serving them.
The last thing I want to say about this is the objection I get a lot is "Well, I really want to help people with gut health issues but there are so many people out there having gut health issues. You're going to have healthygut.com. You guys are already crashing that market. There's no room. There's no space."
[0:35:09]
I'll tell you right now. As a whole, all the people on the internet right now who have gut health companies like ours are probably only serving 5% of the world's population that have gut health problems. There is a need for more, as many of us. We need an army of people serving the gut health niche. We need an army. We need people on constipation. We need people on alternating constipation and diarrhea. We need people on IBS. We need people on Crohn's. We need people on colitis. We need it all.
At the end of the day there's an intangible here that I haven't talked about yet which is your personality. There could be other people out there who have the exact same niche as Steve and I but they're going to identify more with that person's personality than Steve and I. For some reason, I don't know what it is about us, but our customer base and our population of our communities is like 85% women between 30 and 50. I don't know why that is but they really identify with us for some reason more. There are probably other people out there, in fact I know there are other people out there who men for some reason identify more with. A lot of times those are women practitioners that men identify more with to help with their gut health issues. I don't know what is. It's just social dynamics and personality types.
Even if you're coming into a niche where there are already people there, don't let that stop you because you're going to have a unique personality that -- you're going to take a slice of the pie, and the pie is huge and it's underserved. There are people who desperately searching within that pie. Your personality is going to identify and really click with a certain group in some segment of that niche. You're going to be fine. You're going to be full of clients. Trust me there. So it's just a matter of getting through that objection saying look, there's a place for you here. This niche is still underserved. You're bringing your own personality to the table.
Christopher: It's really interesting because we're now a little bit pass that point. It's the same person that we see over and over again. We get fired up when the person has not really tried anything yet. So if we get Bob come to us and he is stilling eating cereal for breakfast and sandwiches for lunch and pasta for dinner, like Julie and I do like high fives in the kitchen and I might dance a little dosey doe because we know this guy is going to be giving us a testimonial in three weeks. We don't think about it so much now.
I wonder. Do you think it's a mistake then to try and niche in on anyone under the age of 35? I realized that I probably wasted half of my life feeling like crap. It was only once I got to a certain age and I have this glimpse of my mortality that I was really ready to take this stuff seriously. Do you tell people "No. That's too young. You can't do that. You got to be at least 35 years old"?
Jordan: That's a good question. I haven't actually thought about that. I don't I've ever been asked that question. I'm thinking in my head we've had probably over 500 students in the Practitioner Liberation Project. I'm trying to go through my having. I've helped most of them one-on-one with their niche at some point in time. I'm thinking about there's been quite a few occasions where they've come to the table and I say, "Well, my niche is 20 to 50 year old men with some type of condition." I'm like "Whoa! That's so wide. We have to narrow that range of your niche." The reason is because when you choose a niche you're really defining how you communicate with somebody. Let me give you a couple of examples of how to look at that.
By the way, there's never a wrong answer with niches. It's just you're defining who you're talking to. You're creating that ideal client. There are a couple of ways to look at that. If I choose somebody who's fatigued for example, I could choose somebody who's fatigued, and that's their number one problem, and they have no clue what adrenal fatigue is yet, for example, or I could choose somebody who's fatigued but they know they have adrenal fatigue. Let's say they've already been diagnosed with it and they can't get out of adrenal fatigue. Those are two very different ways of communicating.
If they're fatigued, they have no idea what adrenal fatigue is. Most of the time I'm going to be communicating about this thing called adrenal fatigue. I'm going to have to educate them about it and tell them about why it's causing them fatigue likely and blah-blah-blah. I'm talking to them about this thing called adrenal fatigue. If they've already been diagnosed with it or they know they have it I don't have to talk about any of that stuff. It changes the communication over to common reasons that you're stuck in adrenal fatigue, common causes of being stuck in adrenal fatigue. That changes the whole conversation.
It's similar to what you just said, Chris. If you choose a niche of people who are already gluten-free versus people who are eating standard American diet, that's a very different conversation. If they're eating standard American diet you're going to start talking about gluten, you got to start changing their diet. That has its own pitfalls because they got to change their entire life for the first time and a lot of times they're very resistant. If they are already on a gluten-free diet then you're having a very different conversation.
Along those same lines when you choose age ranges, 20 to 50, the conversation with a 20-year-old is very different than a conversion with a 50-year-old. They're very different occasions. You guys who are doing physical practices right now and seeing patients, you know because you have those every day.
[0:40:05]
When you see a 20-year-old versus a 50-year-old, they ask different questions, they have different concerns, they have different priorities, they have different objections.
I've helped a lot of people by saying, "Hey, your niche is way too broad. We need to change the age range" but I don't think I've ever specifically said, "You should never work with people under 35." There are a lot of circumstances that I would say maybe would support working with people under 35 like, for example, if you're choosing a niche of college athletes, for example, that's a great niche. College athletes are very motivated to increase their performance. If you're working with kids on the autism spectrum, that's a great niche, it's a beautiful niche. A lot of times in that case you're going to be communicating with the parents, of course, but I think there are exceptions.
I would say generally speaking I love to see people niching in 30 or above unless it's a specific circumstance where younger people are going to be served in that specific selection so like the examples I gave. But I agree with you, Chris, I think there are a lot of cases on average. Most people aren't that motivated to really care about their health and change until they get in their 30s. That's just life experience, I think. So if you're just starting out, you don't have a lot of experience, I would recommend choosing above a 30-year-old niche but if you have experience in a certain specific subniche that is younger, go for it. I think there is definitely a place for that especially with personal trainers. If you're choosing niches of CrossFit athletes, college athletes, maybe people who are training for marathons, I mean there's a lot of that type of stuff that tends to be better served in the 20 and 30 niche.
Christopher: What are the prerequisites for the Practitioner Liberation training course? Before we even knew about that course and before I signed up for it we knew that you've done a lot of blogging. You guys have written a lot of really great articles and probably helped a lot of people that way. One of the things I really suck at is writing. I really don't enjoy the process. If I try and force it I'm just creating a life I hate. Is that one of the things that you need to be good at then in order to do the training course and be successful as a practitioner?
Jordan: There are a couple of things. I don't think you need to be great at writing. In fact I would challenge most people who are wanting to build an online business to destroying and creating everything they learned about writing because most of us came from a place of writing in a way that we were taught over the years that's very formal. Let's say it was essay writing, those types of structures, or we've read a ton of medical literature. We've read a ton of research papers.
I tell you what. If you start writing your blog like research papers that you've been reading, you're not going to do well. The evidence really suggests that we want to write more in what's called copywriting. That's a very different way of writing. It's a really writing in a way that we call write-speak. So you want to write in a way that sounds like a conversation. If you've ever gotten anything transcribed, you know how different a transcription reads than a research paper. The average American likes to read between a sixth and an eighth grade level. There's nothing judgmentee about that. Judgmentee, I just made the word up.
Christopher: I was going to say when you read my transcriptions I sound like a 16-year-old valley girl.
Jordan: That's why you do well, my friend. Honestly, when I'm reading something online about my health I don't want to be reading a research paper. I want to be reading something that's just simple and easy to understand. Generally that's like sixth to eighth grade reading level. When you start to get writing that's high school or college level, PhD level, you turn off 99% of your ideal clients unless your ideal clients are PhDs.
Christopher: It has happened. We have had a bioinorganic chemist write a testimonial for us recently. It does happen.
Jordan: I'm sure it was very well written. When you think about research papers, they're written for other PhDs to critically evaluate, peer review. We want to write in a way that is more conversation. We want to write in a way that's probably not the way you've learned. So we spend a lot of time in PLP teaching you how to do write-speak.
A lot of times we have normal conversations. You and I are just having a normal conversion right now. We're talking like normal human beings do just like we're at a cocktail party. We're not like "Well, the square root of five and the intangible amino acids," whatever. We're just having a conversion right now like regular human beings.
When we sit down to write all of a sudden we turn into that PhD in our brain. We turn that on to write. We need to stop turning that on and turn it off and instead write like a normal human being. When you do that you build an emotional connection and a relationship with your ideal clients. Now, I'm talking about on average.
[0:45:02]
If somebody has a niche where they're serving like PhD people, that's a whole different story but in general this is what works really well.
One of the best exercises you can do just to get a feel for this is if you were to sit down and try to write a piece of blog content for your website, for example, you might outline it by kind of writing five different headings and then writing it all down and doing the whole thing. It might take 10 to 15 hours and slight research and all that stuff. I would challenge you to try it in a different way. I would challenge you to try to have five questions that you ask yourself.
So let's say you're writing about gluten-free diets. The first question would be like what is gluten. What foods have gluten in them? Why does gluten make you sick? I want you to just write five questions that you would need to answer to write this blog post and then ask them to yourself as if it was a patient asking you those questions, and record your response, your audio response, and then get it transcribed. There's a service called WeScribeIt that we use. WeScribeIt is good. They turn stuff around quick. You could get it transcribed and look at how you responded to those questions.
Many times you're going to take that piece of content and turn it into a blog post way faster than if you were to sit down and try to keep turning off that PhD in your brain and writing something more sophisticated. You'll find that what you spoke is more engaging, there are more stories in there, there are probably a lot more things that you've learned to say to your patients over the years that work well. So those are the types of things that you can do to really see the difference between turning off that way we've been taught to write and writing in a way that actually works online with people to help you build trust and credibility.
Christopher: That's such good advice. I've seen it work recently. I have a friend, Louise Hendon, who's just written a cookbook, The Essential Keto Cookbook. I interviewed her husband who's a very good writer. Louise got me to the write foreword for this cookbook. That's exactly what she did. She knew that I hated writing. She just asked me some questions about the ketogenic diet. It was trivial for me to answer them. My English was a bit kooky. Jeremy took it and he polished it just a bit, just changed a few words. I read that foreword back and I was like "Holy cow! Did I write that? That's fantastic. This is what I need to do. This was at the heart of it all." That's such a great advice. I feel like the Practitioner Liberation Project was like that all through. It's so simple but it's so valuable.
Another area I wanted to talk to you just a little bit about was your skill with choosing business backend support system. There's this one problem which is you can't find any clients. So maybe you're listening to this and you're an acupuncturist or a chiropractor or you have functional medicine skills or maybe you're just a health coach like me, just a lay person that knows how to help people and you have some qualifications. You're just trying to find more clients. So that's one problem. That's how you solve that problem we just talked about.
But then what happens when you get 200 people all turn up on your doorstep wanting help and you have absolutely no business infrastructure in place? That is a disaster. Can you talk about some of the systems that you found helpful for organizing people or handling them efficiently?
Jordan: Yeah. First of all, that's a great problem to have when you face this problem.
Christopher: It's a better problem to have. When I first discovered this problem was when we did the first Ben Greenfield podcast. I say we because it was me and Jamie did the Ben Greenfield podcast. I'll never forget that Saturday morning when hundreds and hundreds of people started emailing me within the space of an hour. They're all asking the same question. When can I talk to you? The first guy, I was able to schedule it by hand. I looked at my calendar and I made some suggestions. He replied to my email. You can't do that with 200 people at once. It just won't work. My goodness. That was lesson learned the hard way.
Sorry. I'll stop talking now and let you talk about how some of the businesses are just going to help you practice.
Jordan: Well, I think that's a funny thing because you and I have talked a lot about this offline. You were a software engineer and I was a mechanical engineer. When we're in school we're kind of trained to build systems, and that's just how we think like an engineer. So building systems in our businesses is second nature to us but to some other people it's kind of a foreign language. I know you, Chris, you have amazing systems in your business, and that's what we strive to build in ours as well because at first when we started to open our one-on-one practice we were overwhelmed. We were doing everything. We were emailing the follow up appointment notes. We were asking them to book an appointment. We were coordinating all the tests and supplement. It was a mess.
Over time we brought in a team and built a system so we'd have an office manager and a customer service person making it all run smoothly. At the end of the day the goal was for Steve and I to just see people. The way we do that is we would just open our calendar, open our service that we had that had all of our patient and client files in it, client test results, notes and all that stuff. And just have those two windows open and then connect with the client.
[0:50:06]
When the call is over we would hang up and that was it. Our team would handle everything else. They would take our notes and turn it into a health plan and send it to the client. They would take care of collecting any funds that need to be collected, moving test and supplements around, getting results, all the customer service, emails that were asking us the same questions over and over and over again. They had what we called macros which were us answering the question that they would forward on to them that we had answered in the past at some point. It was all systematized so that all we did was see people. There was no other work done outside of our appointments.
It took us a while to get there but that's what you want to strive for. The way you start to look at that is if you're a practitioner right now and you're starting to build up a demand of seeing people and you don't have a team yet, it doesn't have to be a scary thing hire people to help you. You can get great help for $15 to $20 an hour. The first thing you want to do is just get a piece of paper and a pen and put it on your desk. As you go through your day sort of document timestamps of when you're working on things and what you're working on. So 15 minutes responding to customers' emails about ingredients in their supplements. Fifteen minutes finalizing this person's health plan from my notes after the call is over. Fifteen minutes ordering tests for the first three patients that got invoice this morning, blah-blah-blah. You're taking all these notes.
I want you to think about your hourly rate. Let's say it's $125 an hour, $200 an hour, something like that, let's say it's $200, your $200 an hour rate is when you're doing $200 an hour of value in the world. That's typically when you're being a healer and you're working with people. I can tell you that when you're doing things like ordering tests or processing invoices or responding to questions like what's the tracking number for my supplement shipment, when you're dealing with all that stuff that's $15 to $20 an hour value in the world, and you're doing a disservice to the world. That's how I want you to think about it. You're doing a disservice to the world to be spending your time and energy on those tasks.
Let's say you could outsource the $15 to $20 an hour tasks to a great team, an office manager and a customer service person or just an office manager. That could free up three to four more hours, sometimes 10 more hours a week where you can be doing $200 an hour value to the world. That means seeing more patients or building your online business if that's what you want to do, if you want to do one-to-many, if you want to create a course or write a book.
So I want you to think about and have a mindset around your time in that way and start by documenting what you're doing. If you don't have systems in place yet you can hire an office manager. I'll tell you. The best place to find an office manager is in your community, in your community, all day long. That's the best place. Send an email out to your email list even if it's only 100 people or if you have 4,000 people, send an email to your email list. There are stay-at-home moms who love you. There are former patients whose lives you've saved that would love to have a part time job working 10 hours a week for you for $15 to $20 an hour being your office manager and helping you with your mission because you saved their lives. They will be the best employee you'll ever have. That is where I would start to look at.
What are your tasks that you're doing? Are they your high value to the world tasks or are they low value to the world tasks? Think about that. You're answering customer service tickets or emails for $200 an hour when you could be paying someone $15 an hour to do it and see a patient instead. Those are the things I want you to be thinking about.
Christopher: That's awesome. Literally you are 10 steps ahead of me. I can avoid making all the mistakes that you made just by following in your footsteps. It's a pretty powerful thing. Let me ask you this. Is this all about just exchanging your time for money? I know that's one of the problems that I am running into and will continue to run into is there are only so many of my hours I can sell. So if this business ever wants to be of a certain size then I'm going to find other ways in order to help people and make money. Can you help people with that stuff or is this just about exchanging your time for money?
Jordan: Yeah. The one-to-many model instead of the one to one model is very important. It's going to help create a bigger impact in the world. It's going to help you "make money while you sleep" although it's not as glamorous as it seems. It will help you diversify your impact in the world. You can still do one to one while having assets in your company that do one-to-many. You can still diversify your revenue in that way too which is really nice. We have modules on that in the Practitioner Liberation Project to help you create your first course or create your first e-book.
The biggest problem that I see is people that want to build an online business, an online practice, and they're just like "You know what. I got a physical practice or I just want to write a book. I want to get my course out there." Who are you going to sell it to? You haven't built any systems to have a stable and sustainable company yet.
[0:55:13]
So the way we really encourage people to go through the process is to hit a couple of milestones before you actually build a one-to-many product whether that's group coaching or a six-week program, like a six-week reset, 30-day reset or an e-book or something like that. Before you do all that I like to see people having at least a three-week waiting list of clients like it takes about three to four weeks for people to book an appointment with you. That to me suggest that you have demand and you have returning clients, you've built up a stable revenue source of clients and you've got returning stable systems of getting new clients like let's say you're a podcast like Chris or you've figured out Facebook ads really well and you've got a consistent source of new people coming into your client load. That's milestone one. You've got some type of waiting list to book with.
Number two is that you started to build up some type of an email list. Again, these are the people you're going to offer the product to.
So when you hit those two milestones, we like to say around 1,000 people on your email list, then you know that you've got the stable foundation of a good business, a good online business. And then you can start to allocate time and energy to building a one-to-many product. They're very important. The way to have a really successful online business that's stable is to have a product suite that contains an information product, that's the one-to-many, one-on-one services and some type of physical products. It might be test and supplements. It might be physical books. It might be supplements or shakes, whatever. I don't know what it's going to be for you but those three things are what round out a healthy stable company.
When you're just starting out, you got to get that one-on-one handled. You got to get that one-on-one handled so you have the ability to support yourself financially. You spend the time to build the systems to get yourself leads. If you were to spend 30 hours a week building an information product, you'd have no one to sell it to. If you were to spend 30 hours a week building systems like Facebook and podcast and stuff like that, to bring in new leads to your company on a regular basis, then you'd have the company, and then you can go build your have a product and have lots of people sell it to. By the way, people will continue to buy to for years because you've already built systems for people to come to your site for years.
I think the big mistake I see with practitioners is they're like "I have a book inside me." That's great. Put it aside for a year.
Christopher: Save it.
Jordan: Let's get you a stable healthy company first, and then you'll have your book and you can sell it and you can make like $20,000 off one email whether it's a book or a six-week course. A lot of people say, "I want to do coaching." I get it but you don't even have a demand for one-on-one yet. So let's get that built up, hit a couple of those milestones and then launch a group program. That's the transition to one-to-many.
I really encourage people to think about where are you going to invest your time over the next year. If you spend a lot of time the next year building a one-to-many product and you have no one to sell it to, you're not going to be successful and it's not going to help anybody either. If you spend the next year building systems and content that brings consistent flow of email addresses and people into your company and your community, then you can transition to spending the time and energy to sell them what they want in terms of one-to-many content. That's my spiel on that.
Christopher: We've seen that play out. It's great advice. We haven't written a book or an online product of any type but we have created an MCT oil powder. Jordan, you know MCT more or less, don't you?
Jordan: Yeah.
Christopher: Of course. We knew from talking to lots and lots of people, literally thousands of people, that it causes a lot of GI distress, even though it is a fantastic fact. So we kind of looked to try and solve that problem. How can we not send people running to the bathroom when we give this really interesting medium chain fatty acid? The solution has turned out to be an MCT oil powder. The problem with MCT oil powder that's on the market at the moment is they tend to contain some of the common food allergens that's probably causing you trouble when you were 20 years old or 22 years old.
Tommy is the medical doctor who's our chief medical officer. My wife, Julie, is a food scientist. We've created an MCT oil powder that uses one of the prebiotic powders that we use on our practice anyway on people trying to restore their gut health to create this free-flowing powder. I just mentioned it briefly on the podcast a few weeks ago. People started buying it. I couldn't believe it. It didn't even really exist then at that point. I ordered the raw ingredients but we didn't have the labels or anything like that.
[1:00:04]
As I'm recording this yesterday and the day before Julie and I were in our kitchen putting labels on standup pouches and setting up a clean room and filling them full of powder and heat sealing them. It's all now shipping. It's the real thing. Thank you very much if you're one of those people that immediately ordered our product on hearing it on the podcast.
Of course if I tried to do that on day one, create this product and then talk about it on a podcast that nobody listened to, guess what, it's still an awesome product but nobody would've bought it. So we wouldn't really have helped anyone or made any money which kind of sucks.
Jordan: I love that story. That's a great example. It goes back to over the years when we've built stuff and now that we have such a big community. When we build stuff and we send an email out, it's six figures. I'm not saying that to brag. I'm just saying that because now we have the responsibility and the good fortune to choose to build things that our community desires that would help a lot of people. We've worked hard to build systems to make sure that there's always going to be the demand there for whatever we invest our time and energy in to. I can tell you, the worst nightmare in the world is to spend six months of your life building something that helps no one.
Christopher: Oh, my God. I can't imagine it doing that. It's the worst nightmare to go away and to spend so much time. How do people get started with this stuff? Where do you go to find out more about the Practitioner Liberation Project?
Jordan: Good question. We've got a webinar set up. It's all about how to get clients and patients for your online practice and who it's for. I want to be specific about who it's for. It's for anybody who has some type of license or certification or they've been through some type of a course to get skills to heal people in whatever modality that is, or they're still currently enrolled in the program, they haven't graduated yet. So that could be anyone from a nutritionist to holistic health coach, personal trainer, all the way up to an MD, DO, we have a lot of those people in our community as well, and anywhere in between.
The bottom line is that you've got some type of training to help people safely. You're not just someone who's like "I lost weight so now I'm going to help you lose weight." You've gone and learned some skills from some type of modality. Even if you're just health coach, that's totally fine too. At the end of the day we have this webinar set up. It is for those types of people. If you're still going through a training and certification program, don't wait to get started on this. I say that because I will never forget the day that we sent that one email. The subject line of the email is "Hey, can I call you?" We, in just a couple of lines, said "You guys have asked us to do this so launched our one-on-one consulting program. Click here to book your first one hour case view with us." I'll never forget having a month of clients booked with us that day.
The thing about that is if you're going through a training certification program and you wait to start working on your online business now and you wait until you graduate, then you've graduated and you have to spend the next six months to a year trying to get your first clients versus people that we've helped who are in a training program who build up a community, build up a following, build up a niche, and then when they graduate they say, Hey, I graduated. Click here to book your appointment. I'm ready start working with you." Then you have a getting clients and patients problem solved. I just wanted to encourage people who are also still in a training program to also check this material out. It's a free webinar. Chris, you've got a link set up for that for your community, right?
Christopher: Yeah. I'll do that. I'll go ahead and I'll set up a redirect. I can do that. I'm a software engineer. I do this stuff for a living. I'll set up a redirect to the webinar that you're talking about so that people can find out more about your training course there at nourishbalancethrive.com/plp. That's nourishbalancethrive.com/plp. I'll also put the link in the show notes for this episode.
Jordan: Awesome. Thank you. I'm really grateful to be here, man, and to be able to support people with their impact in the world. Today, hopefully we've helped at least 10 practitioners and hopefully they can go ahead and use some of this content, use some of these tips to see another hundred people. Together that's a nice total of thousand people a day.
Christopher: I love what you're doing. I think you're doing an amazing job. I'm really grateful for everything that you've given us.
Jordan: You're welcome. I'm grateful to be here and support you. I always love catching up with you. I look forward to doing it again some time soon.
Christopher: Cheers, Jordan.
[1:04:43] End of Audio
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