Written by Christopher Kelly
Feb. 27, 2024
Chris:
Hello and welcome to the Nourish Balance Thrive podcast. My name is Christopher Kelly. Today I'm delighted to present to you doctor Michael Bazlinton. He is a family doctor or a GP and the founder of the body mapping clinic in the UK. After recognizing the limits of the National Health Service model of practice and discovering compelling data from the low carb community, Michael expanded his scope as a physician.
In 2017 body mapping was born. The body mapping program embraces 5 key states of being essential to wellness. Nourishment, cognition, sleep, movement and rest. Michael uses blood testing to guide clients in these areas towards optimal health and longevity. On this podcast doctor Bazlinton discusses the body mapping approach and the unique program he has created for those in the UK who want to apply science and technology to managing their health better.
He is currently offering a membership platform for those who wish to use ongoing tracking of their biometric data with periodic live video check ins. The first 6 months are free with the discount code nbt. Well Michael, thank you so much for joining me this evening for you. I'm very grateful for you taking the time. You are a very busy general practitioner.
That's primary care doctor for in American lingo. Cool. And this is your evening. So thank you so much for taking the time to join me today.
Michael:
No problem, Chris. And I'm very jealous of your outlook. I can see you there sitting in the sun. So
Chris:
I know. I do feel bad. It is beautiful. I mean, everybody, I think, listening to this will know that getting sunlight first thing in the morning is probably good. Here, it's just like, can't avoid it.
You know? Like, if anything, you wanna put on sunglasses at 7:30 AM, you know, and you eat breakfast and it's, like, already 90 degrees and, yeah, sorry. I'm boasting now when I Yeah.
Michael:
I mean if today, there was a bit of I you could just see the cook the quality of the light in the UK was just above rubbish. It was, you know, it it was February. You start to get a bit of brightness, so it's not all bad. Not all bad here. Yeah.
Yeah.
Chris:
We're very grateful for the opportunity and the flexibility that we have that enables us to do that. You know, when you put the kids in school and when you work an in person job, it, like, becomes really hard to do things like pick up and move for a month to somewhere more sunny. And so we're, like, super grateful that we have
Michael:
So how long are you there for now?
Chris:
6 weeks. We've been there here a couple to a couple of weeks and 6 weeks total, I think. Oh, no. I meant just a month total. 6 week we're going on to Lisbon after this, and that's 6 weeks.
This is just a month.
Michael:
And the kids are enjoying it there.
Chris:
They're kind of Oh, yeah.
Michael:
They love it. Friends town friends and
Chris:
Oh, it's just so easy for the kids to find friends. There's just kids everywhere. And more importantly, I had Peter grow on the podcast a few weeks ago, and he talked about how it was for kids in the 19 thirties in America. There's just kids everywhere and they were, like, free to roam. It is like that.
There's not as many kids. People are not having 10 kids anymore. The people are here are having 3 4 kids. You you in one family, you see that all the time. And everybody's got this similar mindset where it's okay for your 5 year old to walk a mile to somebody's house on Saturday afternoon.
Oh, and by the way, they can bring a 4 year old with them as long as they hold hands on the way. Right? Like, that just doesn't happen where I live in the US. So it's very refreshing.
Michael:
I mean, we've got 2 18 year old and 15 year old, so that's sort of very much in traditional albeit independent school. They're kinda pretty happy and they've got good friends and we sort of miss the sort of alternative schooling boat, I think. But and we're just so that sort of dictates my sort of current life. But that I mean their schooling is coming to an end in the next 2 or 3 years and I think life will reflect a change I think as we sort of at the moment I'm pretty tied down to where I'm at. So but
Chris:
That's okay. Yeah. And we had the good fortune of visiting you recently. You did. You were very accommodating.
My mom lives in Scotland, and we stopped on the way home. And we had a little glamping session at your house and some just incredible food. You definitely I I always think it's beautiful when you, like, stop by and visit someone and they live what they preach. Right? Like, a 100%, which is just so awesome.
Michael:
It's good fun. I'm just sorry. Yeah. I mean, the tent was where we I mean, it's difficult to describe, isn't it? We live behind a brick wall, but it's a pretty busy road, so it's not ideal.
But you survived the night despite the traffic.
Chris:
Oh, yeah. Are you kidding me? I have a VW camper van that I park in my front garden, and I sleep in there rather than in the house. Like, I prefer sleeping outside. This is actually a good thing for me.
Michael:
We have a kind of kids play for which your kids enjoyed, and I haven't quite got around to taking it down.
Chris:
Taking it down. It's like, emotionally, it's too painful to come to terms with the fact that the kids are not gonna play with this ever again.
Michael:
Although we did have a we did have 30 35 15 year olds round at the weekend for a party and a few of them did try and go down the slide. So so maybe There's no need to come down even
Chris:
if they did.
Michael:
Come down. Yeah. They did. And they we just sit inside and watch through the windows and try and make sure they don't drink too much alcohol and, yeah, we'll go home safely. So till we are.
Chris:
No problem.
Michael:
It's just different. No. So they had a great time and yeah. No. It was good to host you and thanks for dropping by.
So that was good fun. It was
Chris:
our pleasure. Yeah. For having us. Yeah. I was just trying to think where I first met you.
I think it was, you know, I was in in the UK with a colleague for the British Journal of Sports Medicine Conference.
Michael:
It was at Doncaster Stadium, Rover Stadium, for a conference in 2017 or was it 16?
Chris:
Yeah. Something like that. Might be something like that.
Michael:
I think it was 17. Yeah. A colleague of mine had been listening to your podcast, and she said, oh, you must. And so she sort of got me to come along. And, yeah, the rest is history.
And I remember because I think you just you just started out on the BloodSmart, which was then it was by a different name, I think.
Chris:
But Yeah. That's right. I mean, actually, what we presented at that conference was something slightly different. It was using subjective life assessment, just asking people questions about how they feel and then using that data to predict the results of a test they hadn't done yet. And and that was quite successful as well.
And that's obviously appealing because you don't even need right. You do the the subjective assessment. You click on spend 7 minutes clicking on radio buttons, and then maybe I can predict your hemoglobin levels. And so, like, the cost of the test is essentially 0 if you don't count the person's time to click on the buttons.
Michael:
I think there's something about your sort of looking at the way we sort of interpret data. And at the time, I was trying to think of a an alternative project to do other than the the NHS primary care that I was doing at the time, still I'm doing. That sort of is interesting. And I think we went we had a steak. I think we managed to find the sort of the only sort of gluten free option in South Yorkshire that wasn't curry and wasn't pizza.
Yeah. Sounds good. Now I remember that. It's good. Yeah.
Chris:
That's great. So how did you get So I thought I mean, you're obviously very sympathetic to low carbohydrate diets and diet and lifestyle medicine in general, and this is not what I think of when I think of the average British GP. So what was it that, like, got you interested in all this stuff in the first place? Like, tell me about your dad. Right?
Like, he was highly influential in your life.
Michael:
So he's a dentist and just really interested in everything sort of in I mean, his passion is gardening. He's retired now. He's in his mid seventies, but he was a sort of natural scientist in many ways. So we grew up in the sort of East Anglia, sort of if you imagine London and you go north and slightly east. So it's quite dry.
It's quite arid. Sort of rolling countryside. And my parents managed to buy a about an acre of garden which was wild. It came up for sale and they bought it. And we used to call it the willow patch.
They grew Essex cricket bat willow trees. And it was neck high in brambles and singing stinging nettle. So we essentially roamed this acre of garden. So we're like your kids, really. We just went out in the morning and came back in the evening and lit fires, dug trenches, and generally kind of and swam in the stream.
And so it was a quite a quite a sort of idyllic childhood. But his his thing was about prevention in dentistry. So he was so we you know, diet and lifestyle and eating was sort of mealtime conversations from the age of well, for as long as I can remember, really. And I think I didn't want to be a dentist. I think I knew that.
Within or at the time, I think sort of what does a 14 year old boy want to do? I don't think I knew. I knew what I didn't want to do. So when I chose my a level
Chris:
It's always an easier question, isn't it? What do you not wanna do? It's like a way easier question.
Michael:
Anyway, long story short, I ended up doing math physics and geography for a level. Had a gap year, went to university to do engineering, got through the 1st term, and then just thought I probably wanted to do medicine. I think and my mother so dad was a dentist, mom was a midwife nurse, my grandfather was a GP, and his brothers and sisters were surgeons. So there's a lot of sort of medical clinical professionals in the family, which I wasn't really aware of at the time, but I think I sort of became sentient. I sort of woke up to myself at about age 18 and realized that I had a sort of life ahead
Chris:
ahead of me, and what I chose to do for the rest of my life was
Michael:
probably quite important. And maybe I ought to choose something that was a little bit more people orientated than, you know, a sort of a pure engineering background. I think looking back, I don't think it would have mattered. But in the UK at that time, we had our education pretty much are certainly our tuition fees. I'm probably I think I'm probably in the same sort of year bracket as I'm late forties now, so born in 76, which is about
Chris:
Same year
Michael:
as you. Same year as you. So tuition was free, but once you'd used up your 1st 3 years, you had to pay. So so I just felt that maybe engineering was the wrong direction. So I left after the first term.
Had I continued beyond, I think, the second the 1st year, then you're kind of committed to that course. And any if you change in the future, you have to pay for it yourself. So so I left engineering the first term, read it, sat chemistry a a level, and reapplied to do medicine. And rightly or wrongly made that decision.
Chris:
Do you think engineering was important for the way that you think now? Like, I've I've known Yes.
Michael:
This is. I'm just
Chris:
trying to think of all the doctors I know. Like, Ted Nieman is, like, the best example I can think of where, like, he's just stuff he just thinks differently. And honestly, like, of all the people I've talked like, maybe him Stefan Guillenet and Ted Niman. Like, if you're looking for advice on diet, I think those two guys between them have got it. And they're not they're very much overlapping.
But his protein to energy ratio and his 40 per calorie is like I mean, that's where it's at. Right? Like, that is the I think
Michael:
so I mean, we for all clients, I give them I use Ted's formula to work out their protein requirements. So yeah. I do. Yeah. Yeah.
So So
Chris:
you think that, like, engineering backgrounds, like, wanting to understand, you know, that as an engineer, you come to something that's broken. You like, the first question you asked Yeah. Well, I this effort.
Michael:
Isn't it? Oh, it's funny.
Chris:
Right? Like, okay. So what changed?
Michael:
Yeah. I think the actual principles of engineering was, to be fair, I really I found math is never easy, but I enjoyed math a level mechanics, the sort of understand it in your physics. So I did a gap year, which is a good idea. And I spent so basically, I went to Cambridge, spent a year working with scientists in a research center who in I think they were based in oilfield research. And they basically said, in the UK, at that time, if you want to do an exciting engineering, you've gotta travel abroad, and you've gotta, you know, forget having a family life because that's where it's at.
And we're only back here because we've for our families and we don't actually like the work. So we're pretty negative. That flavored my sort of view of the sort of future. And I knew that I wanted to sort of, even at sort of 17, 18, I wanted to sort of, I guess, in many ways replicate what my parents had done, have a family, stay local. And I think I worried that wasn't gonna be possible in the engineering world.
I think things have changed, and there was probably a sort of slightly naive anxiety I had at the time. So the actual first principles of physics and maths and the science, you know, was interesting, But I was anxious that the career options within engineering would be limited or would require foreign travel, which I didn't really want. I it just didn't appeal to spend months of my life traveling around the world and I think I was right at that. And then I hadn't done chemistry a level which I kind of felt that there was this huge area of science I didn't really know about. So by reapplying to do medicine you have to do chemistry a level.
So I did that and that was really interesting. And I thought by choosing medicine that I would actually I was doing a sort of an applied engineering course to applied engineering for the human body. And one of the biggest disappointments of medical school was coming to terms with the fact that nothing was further from the truth. And, actually, medicine is more of a language degree where you base it. So you basically have to learn the language, and I'm pretty rubbish at and, you know, I don't have a good recall memory.
And my language is, you know, one of the hardest subjects were English and French. And you then arrive at med school, and you basically have to have a dictionary out. And everything is really is learning the language. So the actual the science behind it is almost secondary. So the first principles aren't really addressed.
And then you get into the clinical years, and it's just there's so much volume of learning. I mean, I did fail my 3rd year lab science 8 week kind of lecture series. So I had to spend the following summer in the library relearning all of that. And that there was more that sort of forced me to go back to some of the sort of first principles in the biochemistry at around the pathology of certain conditions, which was a good you know, it was a I didn't enjoy it at the time, but it was probably a good experience. But you're very much it's pattern recognition in or is it I suppose the medical degree is learning a series of symptoms that apply to a certain diagnosis, which then applies to a certain guideline and a certain treatment protocol.
The volume of that is so large. It's very difficult to actually say if you ask, well, why are we doing that? It's like, well, we are because we are, and here's here's a reference list of 50 references as to why we do this, which you don't have time to so you sort of take a lot of it on trust. So I decided so you do medical 5 years of medical school. You do a year's kind of apprenticeship on the wards as a junior doctor.
Again, you know, working a 100 hours a week, 80 to 100 hours a week where you're not really yeah. It's a bit insane, and you're just you're an admin clerk taking your sort of an odd job. You're just doing everything, but you're not really it's not book work. So it's all positive learning, but it wasn't really until so I finished that. I decided to go into general practice.
And it's only sort of 3 or 4 years into that, and you start to have the space and time to think, well, why are we doing this and why are we you start to realize and understand that it's not as clear cut and as you first were led to believe. And I think the key that for me sort of coming on to sort of you mentioned sort of the low carb sort of aspect of it or the thing. This is my dad again. He shared a talk by Robert Lustwick which was a lecture he did. Would have been 2,1011 Sugared at the bitter truth.
It's a it's a Yeah. It's a lot. He's saying fructose affects the liver, and it affects and that's why it's driving obesity. And at the time, we a lot of our diabetics were coming out with nonalcoholic fatty liver disease, so we're doing the liver enzymes. So this must have been in the sort of early must have been to 2013, 14.
And I listened to that lecture, and this was someone who understood biochemistry and understood their first principles. And this felt like engineering and explained what I was seeing in the day to day practice. And I think that was the key lecture that really made that led me then towards, well, if we've got this wrong I remember my my trainer was we wrote the gastroenterologist, you know, why what should we do with all these patients with, you know, deranged liver function tests? And the answer came back, well, you need to check they haven't got, you know, hepatitis and, you know, the infective sort of rule, which is, you know, a good screen to do. But no one said, oh, it's part of the metabolic syndrome.
It's part of the diet. It's part of, as Ted Nemen say, the protein energy ratio is wrong. No one knew. No one sort of came back in our locality with the correct answer. And then to listen to this lecture and this guy lays it out over 2 hours or something.
So and then you sort of say to your colleagues, look. This is it's the fructose. It's actually nothing to do with the it's not the fact they're overweight. It's the type of food. And and you see the lights go off really in in your colleagues, sadly.
Chris:
What do you mean by lights off? Like, they're not interested? Or
Michael:
Yeah. It's so unfortunate. There's a little bit of debate, but it's hard work. And they're like well, well, I haven't got hepatitis so
Chris:
and it's
Michael:
like I know So they're
Chris:
idiopathic. Yeah.
Michael:
Yeah. It's just like it's just one of those things and we just say a bit more of it and it's like, well anyway, so Robert last week, he was really key. And then from then, I don't know how I think our local physio she's a private physio. She's ex GB runner, and I sort of got in touch with her and she said, oh and I sort of said, I'm thinking about doing something alongside my NHS general practice. I think I'm gonna start a sort of small sort of health coaching business or something.
I had no idea what that would look like. And she said, oh, you must look into this low carb stuff that professor Noakes is talking about. And then from that, I got involved in is it Jono Proudfoot's Banting course? So I did his John O Proudfoot and Tim Noakes wrote the book called The Real Meal Revolution.
Chris:
Yeah. I did that. We used that with clients for a while too. It's like it's some stuff that.
Michael:
Yeah. So and they did a Banting course. So Banting was a under a Victorian undertaker in the UK who proposed a low carb diet, and he lost lots of weight on it. So that's the term banting. So Professor Noakes.
He was an undertaker to the royal family, and he was very overweight. And he put himself on a low carb diet back in 19th century or the turn of the century. Anyway, so John O'Prowler for Tim Noakes did a Banting course. So I signed up for that. And that was it was good really.
I mean, because he had a little bit of motivate, you know, how do you coach people and how do you sort of and at the same time, we were we incorporated the company. I had a sort of a moment of clarity when I sat in the car at the gym and got a message from one of my colleagues to say that they were gonna be off sick for 6 months or something and good luck everyone. So the model of general practice in the UK is based on partnerships and you're relying on your colleagues and there's a fragility there. And I wanted to do something different. So we set up this company called Bodymapping.
Chris:
Describe the typical setup for the UK general practice for those outside of the UK that may not be familiar with it. It's like the number of people that could come and see you in theory is, like, is really quite extraordinary.
Michael:
So my understanding, and this may this is my understanding of how we arrive where we are, is that when at the inception of the NHS, you sent essentially had private hospitals employing private consultants, And then people who chose not to be consultants and work in the hospitals would often set up a sort of general practice in their own homes. So my grandfather did that. So he was he he ran a general practice out of his front room just after the war. So my mum and sis to my aunt and mum grew up in that house. They lived on the top two floors.
The practice was down below. And then at the inception of the NHS, the offer was made to the GPs to be part of the NHS. But my understanding is the government couldn't really afford to buy all of their the properties that they were running their practices out of. So they couldn't really employ them because they didn't have estates. They didn't have practices to put these doctors in.
They just didn't have the and to go out and buy the properties, they couldn't afford it. So they sort of set sort of a system of paying the doctor's rent. So the government said, you come and work for us. Here's your contract, and we will pay you, some of your income will be rent for the buildings you you own. And that's kinda where we sort of are still really in that some so if you're a general practice, you probably have between 3 to 10 partners all working together who have a legal framework of a partnership.
So they're not limited companies. In the UK, you can have a partnership which has a standing in law and you can hold a contract with the NHS, which is multiple income streams of varying complexity and value that pay you to look after a population of patients. So I work in sort of North Nottinghamshire, and we have 7 partners. And we have about 11 and a half 1000 patients. And we have a single customer, really, which is the NHS, and the NHS pays us to look after those patients.
So those patients pay nothing for our services, and any of those 12 11,000, 12,000 patients can call us any day for anything. Prior to 2004, that was 247. So any of those patients could have phoned us Monday to Friday, Saturday, Sunday at any time of day or night. So the 2004 contract changed that so that it ring fenced the time to working hours, which is approximately 8 till 6 at 6:30, which actually was good, I guess, in some respects because it was difficult to offer 247 service. But by ring fence or protecting practices from offering the 24 hour service, you get fragmentation of care.
Then out of hours, providers come in. And we're in a situation now where so if one of my patients is ill after 6:30, they phone the local out of hours, and they will then see them. So you lose some continuity of care. But in some ways, it is a incredibly efficient system. Patients don't pay for it, which is great, but then how do you value that?
So if you don't pay for something, I think you tend to devalue it. And we're certainly we don't really value what we have. And unfortunately, I think the quality of the service as the funding continues to drop year on year will be much diminished in the next sort of well, it is compared to how it was 10 years ago. But in sort of mid sort of 2015, 16, I just felt that there was never gonna be a time in the NHS where I would be able to order a fasting incident for someone and actually do really understand I was gonna be limited in what I can do for people in a sort of functional root cause medical engineering sort of way of working with people. So at that time, I sat down with Rowena, my wife, my good lady, who you all met in the summer.
And so that we just had a bit of a sort of brainstorming day. And I sort of described what I wanted to do, which essentially is setting up a kind of a service to sort of support people, you know, in in their sort of wellness rather than waiting until they get ill. So sort of supporting their health. And she came up with the idea of calling it body mapping. She said it's like it's a it sounds like body mapping to me.
So credit her for the sort of the name of the company that we set up.
Chris:
That's funny because as you were describing what it takes to become a medical doctor, and you talked about a lot of it is learning the language and the difference between that and, you know, what you would do in engineering. And you reminded me of for sure you were joking, mister Feynman, you know, the biography of Richard Feynman. And he talks about going to the library and asking for the map of the cat. You know, like, you wanted to understand the biology of a cat. Where's the map?
I'm sorry, Richard. I
Michael:
didn't have a map
Chris:
of the cat.
Michael:
Well, that's it, isn't it? Did you do Duke and Edinburgh at school?
Chris:
Which is I was aware of it. I never I probably did something on that program, but not heavily.
Michael:
So it's a kind of set up by Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, and it has an expedition kind of component, and you go for 5 days. So every summer in the UK, you see groups of teenagers wandering around with big rucksacks on their back looking lost. So it was great. And that involved maps and sort of so the mapping analogy, you know, it's good to know where you're going and what when you arrive, you know, you've actually arrived and you don't get lost. And yeah.
So we started the body mapping company in 2016, 17, and we're kind of at a position where now where I sort of know what I'm trying to achieve with it. It's been quite a journey, I guess. You guys at Nourish Plan Thrive has sort of had a similar journey, possibly slightly different origins. But
Chris:
Yeah. So MBT has been all about helping athletes overcome chronic health complaints and improve performance. And that's maybe slightly different from what you know, I watched the BBC 2 film, Fixing Dad, and then I watched the YouTube series. And I can link to that in the show notes, fixing dad. Can you tell us about I mean, it's obviously a very different sort of person than athletes.
They're great because when you tell them that this will improve performance, they just get it done. Right? Especially if it's their job. Whereas, you know, fixing dad is a very different proposition. Can you tell us about fixing dad?
Michael:
Yes. We listen to this as I go back to my sort of general practice work. We listened this lecture by Robert Laswig, banned the Tim Noakes, Jono Proudfoot, Banting course, Luke, and which was essentially about low lower carbohydrate diets, The fat's not bad. And, actually, to to help our diabetics, we need to reduce carbohydrates whilst not worrying, not being fearful of saturated fat, essentially. And as I was sort of working through that, the sort of the population of diabetes in the practice was kind of beginning to exponentially grow and start to overwhelm, and we're completely overwhelmed by now.
But beginning the tsunami was on the horizon, and I don't know how but anyway, I watched the fixing dad BBC 2 documentary. And what it essentially was is 2 brothers, Ian and Anthony, who kind of cajole, coax, bully their father who's a type 2 diabetic with Sharko's foot about to lose their foot. He's just a mess. He's a sort of psychological and physical mess. I guess he must have been in his sixties.
Anyway, in a very moving kind of documentary that they document they decide that they're not gonna let dad die basically and they're gonna try and fix him. And they I think Ian was a cameraman and Anthony had some filming experience. Anyway, they decided to document this journey. And the the result was they did kind of fix their dad, reversed his diabetes, got him to do the 100 mile London to Bryson cycle race. And have you watched the whole thing all the way through?
Chris:
Yeah. I have.
Michael:
It's funny. It's touching and funny. Anyway, so I watched that. I thought I must show because it it's just it's inspiring, isn't it? That actually, a, it shows that there's no easy way to actually to do this, but it is possible.
So we had a training afternoon, and I said, look. Let's watch it. As a team as a clinical team, let's sit down and watch this and just enjoy it and get some inspiration from it. And then for some reason, we couldn't download it or stream it. So I there's an email address.
And I managed to email Anthony, and he sort of shared another link. Anyway, we watched it. It was positive. The staff enjoyed it, but then that connected me with Ian and Anthony. So when they then went on to do some other work from, I think, from that documentary, which got a lot of exposure, they went on to do some more filming, and they got some sponsorship.
And they did a series of sort of clinician and patient relationships. And they said, would you like to sort of be filmed working with a patient who will find her diabetic will find for you, and that was Rob. And I have to say it was a little bit contrived in some respects, but it wasn't just meant watching a sort of normal relationship. It was trying to create a story. So in in that sense, the videos and the videos document me talking some of Rob's struggles.
In some ways, it was I wouldn't say that it was artificial, but it was trying to create a a sort of a relationship that wasn't there naturally. And I think that's where you're probably picking up some of that. Because when you watch it, it's like, so where is it going? What's and I mean, so I mean, Rob is a he's a type 2 diabetic. He need he's got weight to lose.
So emotional kind of challenges.
Chris:
And he doesn't I mean, they were all emotional challenges, was it? Yeah.
Michael:
They were. I think and I and I, you know, I keep in touch with Rob from time to time, and I think, you know, it's ongoing. And one of our first meetings with him, he said, you know, it's like, right. You know, we're looking forward to working with you, Michael, but you can't never talk about willpower. And I think what he was saying is that, you know, you know, that's my sort of I just feel that I've failed.
I'm gonna fail. So, yeah, it was an interesting journey. He did really well, actually, and that was a lot of the support Iain and Iain Anthony gave him with his diet, and they did more of the coaching than I did through those videos.
Chris:
I I think he'd be very modest about his results. I mean, he was on his surely on a path to an early demise. I mean, his Yeah. He HbA 1c was what is did did not he say 80?
Michael:
60 or 80. Yeah. 60 higher. Yeah. It was high.
Chris:
He's at 80 millimoles per mole, which is 9.5% for the Americans listening. Average blood glucose, 225 milligrams per deciliter or 12.5 millimoles per liter if you're in the UK. I mean, this is, like, not good. And what was it? No.
I mean, he stood up on stage and talked about his experience at the end, and it was half that. Right? It doesn't I think he's basically not diabetic anymore. No. No.
And this is supposed to be, like, a chronic progressive disease. Can't be traced.
Michael:
And I think and I think so so the videos are sponsored by AstraZeneca, who are obviously a pharmaceutical. And even Ian and Anthony were like, I said, well, what's their angle on it? Why do they want us to do that? And I think they were genuinely it was sponsored through one of their sort of they have funds for sort of took them years and I don't think it was actually blocked but I don't I think they were sort of they weren't keen to promote it. They lost interest as the videos were getting edited.
And I think the reason I was there was also to add a sort of medical this is okay. So Yeah.
Chris:
This is not like some fad diet we found on the Internet. They're like, here's a medical doctor that, like, gave this whole thing a stamp of approval.
Michael:
All goes horribly wrong and, you know, Rob, you know, drops down dead, then we can blame doctor Baselinton. So I was fairly encouraged by being invited, but I sort of felt there was a sort of there was a high kind of responsibility risk. I just thought, well, let's just do it and see, you know and it and it was good. So it was a good experience, and Rob did really well. Again, it repeated.
It's, yeah, he's not Rob's not an athlete. And I think a lot of my so my clients are probably somewhere between the clients you're I mean, I do have some recently had some younger guys who have have come on board and working with who are more sort of, I think, in your sort of similar to the guys you're working with.
Chris:
It's about Parkinson Healthspan. Right? Living as many quality years as possible. But generally, people only come in the door when they've got a problem to fix. And that's maybe one of the problems with insulin resistant type 2 diabetes.
I mean, you know, Rob said as much in the film is I felt fine. Like, it's not Yeah. I can go for my work up, and it says I'm a train wreck. But, I mean, I feel fine. So, like, why would I do something about this when for now, I feel
Michael:
fine? Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I work with quite closely with a guy called Graham Phillips, the pharmacist who gave up drugs who's runs a course called Prolongvity. So he does some CGM, continuous glucose monitoring with his clients and does a lot of nutritional work.
And then he refers on to me for blood testing.
Chris:
Oh, that's great.
Michael:
And we obviously run for all the blood tests we do. We run them run a blood smart. And so I don't know how many. We've probably done over a 100, I should think, in the last 18 months, 2 years.
Chris:
That's awesome.
Michael:
So I'm getting I get quite a few referrals from other clinicians already working with clients. So perhaps I can summarize what we actually do with body mapping then. Because that would be
Chris:
Is this because the fixing dad is not the typical Rob's not your typical
Michael:
No. Not really. I mean, fixing dad happened into the 2018. So it's as we were starting the company. And, I mean, in in Ants are great guys, and they sort of have, you know, through the work they've done through that BBC documentary, they've got quite a lot of interest from what's the insurance?
Is it Swiss Re that
Chris:
Oh, yes. Swiss Re. Yeah. Life insurance.
Michael:
Yeah. So they had and they're very they're genuine guys who are just you know, they're sort of they've seen their dad. I think they've seen their dad basically life saved and recovery, and they just wanted to sort of I think when you've had that experience, it's difficult to go back and do anything else other than want to help other people. And their angle was the filming. So and I just wanted to be part of that excitement at the time.
And they still do so they they've got a they do sort of doing some work. So the I think their thing is inspirational documentaries about health, and they do that very well. And their experience was their own father, and they were intimately involved in that, and it worked very well. But it's quite unless you go and send the camera crew to live with someone for 5 years and document and record everything and spend hours editing it, it's very difficult to create that. So, I mean, they have I mean, there are some of the US that they've done some filming in the US and it's aired there.
I haven't seen all of it, but it's good. But we I haven't worked with them now for a couple of years,
Chris:
but it
Michael:
was a good experience. And I think, yeah, I just realized that it's motor the the challenge of actually motivating someone like Rob is huge, and I don't think I've solved that. And the body mapping project in the company hasn't in some ways, it hasn't attempted to. I think if it grows then and we got a health coach on board and a psychologist, then I could potentially have the sort of resource to do that. But at the moment, I haven't.
Chris:
Yeah. No. I totally got that. I looked at the film series and thought, my god, this guy just needs a therapist. Right?
I mean, it's like it's, you know, what do you want, you know, this doctor to do? This is not what he does. I mean, maybe he has some motivational interviewing skills, and he can help you find a better way forward. But my goodness. Yeah.
There were a lot of motivational challenges, so we say, for Robin. Good for him. He overcame them. But
Michael:
Yeah. He did. Yeah.
Chris:
It's not it it did seem a little bit beyond the scope of what you'd expect a GP to do.
Michael:
And it was. You know, I've never but it was I guess it was just experimenting with that. You know, if you took if you had the time in a couple of days to actually work with it, you know, get to know someone. And, you know, we did a few kind of Zoom calls and sort of trying to understand where he was answering his questions instead of guiding reassuring him, you know, he was heading in the right direction, reassuring his own general practitioner that he wasn't harming himself. And the final episode shows us climbing one of the 3 peaks in Yorkshire, which was great day.
It was very misty and wet and rainy, but it was good fun. And, yeah, and I think so the whole experience was positive, but I didn't set up a psychology clinic as a result. I just kind of
Chris:
become a therapist.
Michael:
Yeah. Didn't become a therapist. Yeah. So tell me what you do
Chris:
in in blood mapping. I'm really interested in doing this. So you're using BloodSmart, which is some software that I developed. And I the goal of that software is to help clinicians make better decisions using basic blood chemistry. But then the question always arises, and and I've still not been able to, like, solve this problem in any way that scales, is like, well, what the hell?
Okay. So you've just, like, calculated this FeNO age thing, which is like some measure of biological age. What the hell do I do to improve that? Right? Like, it's a very much an open question.
And, you know, we have some things that we do at MBT that we think work for clients, but I'm not sure that's the only way to do that or even the best way to do that. Right? Like, so I'm super interested. You know, how do you help your clients and patients in improve their scores, whether that be FeNO age, h b a one c, or anything else that you might measure directly?
Michael:
So yeah. So I suppose what I wanted to do is create a sort of holistic root cause medical clinic that or health coaching clinic that people would come to who wanted to sort of I think I probably would have used the word optimize their health in the past. I probably would say who want to make their health more resilient. I think that's probably a better description. Who don't want to become ill in the future if they can avoid it.
And I wanted to have a bit more time with clients, have access to more testing. Well, I didn't realize how much testing is out there and how overwhelming that can be. But trying to apply a sort of holistic view to it. And my sort of niche was anyone. And if you go on these business courses, oh, you've gotta have a niche and you've gotta have the and so I I've sort of stumbled along trying not to have a niche, which is I think it's good to be open minded, but I'm probably is, you know, on reflection.
I think that the business gurus were right. If you try
Chris:
and do
Michael:
there's a reason they're all telling me that. If you try and do
Chris:
There's a reason you're resisting it as well though, I find interesting. Right? Like, you chose not to become a specialist. You're stuck to being a GP. And body mapping is not the clinic for some specific problems.
Michael:
It's not. And I can't make myself focus it down. And I think there is a underlying reason for that because where I am now, and I think I can articulate this better than I've done in the past, is that I think we are a clinic that takes people who want to become more resilient in their health, live longer, live better with fewer negative symptoms, whatever they might be. I want someone with a science background to actually understand that it from a scientific point of view, sort of which is involves reproducibility. And I would say that we look at people in states of being.
And I know a lot of practitioners talk about pillars of health, don't they? Or so I I would describe those as states of being. So we are at any one point in one of these states of being, and they're all familiar to us. They're sleep, rest, nourishment, movement, and cognition. So at the moment, we are I'm probably physically fairly rested.
I'm standing up, but I'm rested. Cognition wise, I'm probably quite engaged. I'm not sleeping. I would say this is a fairly restful conversation. But if we look at our lives, at any one point, we are one of those 5 states of being or there's overlap.
I mean, nourishment, there's emotional and physical nourishment. I think I feel intellectually nourished by this conversation. So but it's also there's a sort of cost, and it's applying a sort of cost benefit analysis to all those states of being. So whenever I see a client in the back of my mind, I am sort of asking it, how does their life and their daily sort of whatever they're doing, whether it's family, work, sport, whatever, how balanced are they in all those states of being? And you could never be perfectly balanced.
But if any of those areas become imbalanced, then you start to get physical health problems. When I look at a client, I I would when I'm having a conversation, subconsciously, I'm making an assessment in all those areas. Now how do you then sell that to someone? How do you add how do you actually value that in order to sort of persuade someone to come and pay money to see me? And that's it's difficult to then articulate that.
So there's those states of being, and there's a cost benefit analysis that has to be made for someone's life in those states of being that, you know, if you if you spend 14 hours a day sleeping, that's gonna cost you in the wrong way. But if you only spend 6 hours or 4 hours sleeping, it's gonna cost you in a different way. So there's a Goldilocks sort of cost benefit analysis in all those areas. And then as you start to sort of think how we might address any imbalances, there's this concept of measure, adapt, improve, which is a sort of virtuous cycle, isn't it? And, again, none of this is kind of new to any of your listeners, but it it's just the way I would sort of articulate it in my sort of the way I used to think about it.
So if we can sense there's an imbalance in someone's state of being, whether it be sleep, rest, nourishment, emotion, then we should start to try and measure it because we can then adapt and then improve and then hopefully reset some of the balance. And I think what we do with body mapping is we measure the physical nourishment in the blood testing. So the blood testing, I think, tells so that is that I that is our core product, really. And it fits my experience in general practice. You know, I spent 20 years looking at people's red blood cell counts.
So when I look at something like the blood smart analysis and it starts talking about red cell distribution with mean cell volume, it immediately speaks to me of everything I've learned in my general practice, but it takes you on to the next level. So I think, you know, what it's so people come to me now for blood testing, which is a measurement of physical nourishment, and that's the product. And that's so all the other areas, I think, in the next 5 years, where I see us going with the company is actually curating people's knowledge. It's more of a knowledge, and it's you know, the knowledge is out there. It's it's fairly accessible if you know where to go.
So I think a lot of what I will be doing is giving the website will have lots of sort of links to sleep, rest, which is essentially for you know, people aren't gonna pay me. You can go and find that. Yes. There's some curation that's needed to get the good stuff. But then when people realize that, okay, my sleep's imbalanced.
I've done everything I can. I'd be really interested to know whether I should be taking more magnesium or whether I should be taking, you know, more vitamin d. Then the product becomes just the measurement of that. So we basically send people a kit. They take have a blood test, then we have a video call and we review that.
And what I found is, as expected, is these kind of patterns. So we sort of see pattern rec you know? And and that's what by addressing that with diet and supplementation, I think we we do change not only the I mean, the FeNO age. Right? The so so the biological age sort of assessment is it's no good if your biological age goes down by 3, but you feel wrong.
You feel awful. So you've gotta have but I think that there's good correlation. As the results get better, people feel better. And then I can point them, I mean, to why that might be. You know, the consult this morning with the chap who b 12 is down at, like, 300, And that's considered normal in your standard lab ranges.
But really, I like that to be above 1200. His homocysteine was a bit high. And I know that if we correct that, I think he will feel slightly better. You know, he's less brain fog, less more, you know, sort of he will and that's been my experience in working with people. So I don't sell them a sleep course, but I'm interested to know what their sleep is doing as a result of changing some of the you know, making the sort of low hanging fruit if you like.
Getting up early, getting some sunlight in the UK if you can. So we apply all of those things, and that's kind of common knowledge and it's your bread and butter, isn't it? It's so I think what we're doing in body mapping is we're selling people a blood testing with but the wrap around that is that we interpret it with the holistic sort of sense of so you can I mean, in the UK, you can go to MediChex, and you can buy a vitamin d test? And it's certainly it's probably about I try and keep my prices similar. You know, I can't charge too much more.
So my blood testing isn't it's possibly a little bit more expensive some than some of the standard tests. I think it's better quality. But so someone so so someone can go and get, you know, 50 blood tests and probably spend a little bit less than what they spend with me. But what are they gonna do with those tests?
Chris:
Yeah. Exactly. What am I gonna do with the data?
Michael:
Yeah. Suppose the value
Chris:
is the value is not in the test. The value is in the interpretation of the data. Right?
Michael:
It is. It is. And I think, you know, the blood smart does a lot in terms of presenting the data in a nice in a graph. I love the, you know, the graphical the raw data in the input. What's the the detailed market view.
That's where I spend most of the time.
Chris:
With the time series and Yeah. The trending. Yeah. Exactly. And then there's all the references there.
Like, if I'm saying this market independently predicts all cause mortality, then here are the references for that so you can have a look at the data for yourself.
Michael:
And I think 20% of what I do with most clients is sort out their iron status.
Chris:
Isn't that funny? All the women are iron deficient and all the men are iron overloaded. Yeah. Including yourself. Right?
Did you go donate club?
Michael:
I've got my next donation next month. I'm really not looking forward to it.
Chris:
It's not the most one you'll ever have, but, yeah, it's not that much.
Michael:
And what's interesting, Chris, is you see I mean, I've had some people who initially look they look like they're a little bit iron overloaded, but they're low on b b 12. And you supplement and you make sure they're getting enough of their b vitamins. And I think the sort of the bone marrow sort of switches on and starts producing more rep you know, more blood blood cell production goes up, and suddenly the iron even the iron levels sort of settle a little bit. And that's a pattern that I've seen several you know, at least 10 to 15 times in the last 2 years, which I never would have predicted. You try and it they're just there isn't in maths, I'm looking in the wrong place, but it's difficult to find studies on that because I don't think people are that interested.
So we're missing I think we're missing a lot of the sort of basic nutritional correction for a lot of people. And it takes about 3 to 4 blood tests over 2 to 3 years to really bottom out what's going on with people. Because sometimes we get a chap in his forties that you come to who looks a little bit iron deficient, and you say you just need to eat a little bit more red meat and change your diet. And suddenly their ferritin just goes through the roof, and it turns out they've got they've got they're partly genetically hemochromatosis. So they but you wouldn't know that if you didn't test.
So or, you know, a colleague of mine had a ferritin of 4,000.
Chris:
Yeah. You're careful, don't you? Because it's also an acute phase reactant. So maybe that person has an infection. He didn't.
Michael:
No. He was in heptozygous for Just like hepatitis. Yeah. Okay. So, you know, it's rare.
It's not that common, but quite a few people have have parts of the the hemozygous for it. So they've got parts of the genetic makeup. So And
Chris:
then how do people get a blood test done in the UK? In the US, we're very lucky in that, you you know, Quest is on basically every high street. Quite often, they're inside the Safeway supermarket, which is a bit like Tesco's in the UK. You know, you just, like, wander into the supermarket, and there's a lab in the back, which is great. It's very convenient.
The results come back really fast in the US. But what about the UK? What's the I mean, I know you spent a lot of time thinking about this. What's the best available options to your
Michael:
We tried to sort it out for Southern Ireland, didn't we? And we just I just could not do it for you. I just couldn't. But in the UK so I use a lab who are sort of based in the center of the UK, and they have a network of clinics where you can go and get a venous blood sample done. I mean, there are some companies that are sort of set up with the capillary blood testing, and it's just a a kick through the post.
But the I think the quality of those are questionable, really. Yeah. For sure.
Chris:
And then some tests are impossible, like potassium, for example. I don't think
Michael:
Yeah. So so where I'm at the moment is if a client joins up and they go for we do a core markers, which is about 50 markers plus, includes the blood smart markers. Got a few extras, including vitamin d and homocysteine and insulin and some of the the b vitamins. So I then send them a kit in the post with 2 ice packs and very detailed instructions of how to freeze those freeze the ice pack in the home freezer. And then they call the lab.
The lab books them with a clinic. And most people can get a blood draw within about half an hour to 40 minute drive. Some people, it's literally 10 minutes down the road. For other people, it's a little bit more of a journey. Sometimes they do it at home, and then the client basically posts the kit back to the lab, Royal Mail, special delivery, arrives the next day, and they get the results possibly that evening.
So within, And and that works. That's working really well. There are other third parties who you can go, as I said, go directly to and buy blood results. But it's quite overwhelming. You know, it's not cheap, and you've gotta travel quite a long way, or it's a kit through the post, which is limited.
So I think what we offer is probably is pretty competitive to what you can buy without without engaging a clinician. Yeah.
Chris:
And then how do you see I mean, you would call them clients in this context, wouldn't you? How do you see clients? Are you seeing people 1 on 1, or do you see them in groups?
Michael:
All 1 on 1. K. All video. We've got a clinic, hopefully. We walked around the building, didn't we?
Chris:
Yeah. That's a sign. Why don't you tell people about that? I think there might be something really special about seeing people in person. I mean, as you know better than I do.
But, like, I just feel like, is this gonna be another sort of hub, you know, where people can connect? Wouldn't it be fun if your clients started bumping into each other in the waiting room, started talking to each other, or, you know, using a gym that was in that same space or something? I don't know. Tell us what you're creating.
Michael:
Yeah. So we live in a sort of average UK, South Yorkshire market town, and we live in the center of town. And we live next to a commercial building, and we share access to it, which was a chiropractor when we bought the building. And then it became a restaurant, and it was a challenge, really, with the mixed use of the shared access. I think went out of our way to try and accommodate that.
But, unfortunately, the guys running the restaurant, my perspective, it was they they give them an inch and they took a mile, and it all sort of anyway, they went bust. Sadly for them, but I guess on reflection, good for us. And we ended up purchasing the building because we couldn't bear the thought of, as I said to you, I think in an email, I tried to have a growth mindset about it rather than sort of getting very depressed about a very challenging situation. So anyway, we bought the building and we've been renovating it since 2019. So it had a new roof in 2020 no.
The new roof in 9 2019. Then we had COVID, didn't we? The c word in 2020. So we everything went on hold. And then we put a we didn't we had another go at it in 2022, which is last spring.
And we got an optician, so another health worker in the on the ground floor. And we've just got 2 floors to do which will include a sort of movement room, dance room, gym, some clinical rooms, and then some sort of photography, editing space for my wife's kind of business part of the business. So it won't be big, but it will be, yeah, it'll be a place for people to come and meet and have one to 1 face to face consultations, which will be good. So So looking forward to that and probably get some and that's when I think we potentially would get a sort of psychologist or a hope hopefully, they will they'll start in March. So, yeah, since we saw you, the things have moved on.
And, yeah, we've got all that lined up. So hopefully, sometimes late March and be done by the summer.
Chris:
That's fantastic. Oh, wow. That's fantastic. Congratulations.
Michael:
Will be soon. Fine. But we'll have a wait stream. I mean, again, whether there'll be some room to do some sort of remote training for clients, I don't know. But, yeah, that's that's slowed us down in some respects.
There's lots of work that gets involved in when you start bricks and mortar start. Yeah.
Chris:
If you thought about group programs at all, it's like it seems like your street, You find some people all interested in resilience and getting together and I've really been enjoying that having multiple people in the same Zoom room even and Yeah. So that's interesting. Discussion and a sort of group thing rather than sharing knowledge, rather than, you know, the sort of didactic one person handing down the wisdom?
Michael:
Yeah. I mean, at the moment, I mean, we've only I mean, I've got 50 clients at the moment, which is and I would say I've only really streamlined the process of the blood testing and the review and the follow-up in the last sort of 6 to 12 months. I mean, it's a learning process. So in some ways, much of time has been taken up with that. I try and read some of the sort of solopreneur entrepreneurial sort of guys who are on Twitter.
Justin Welsh, not sure if you come across him. He and Oh, yeah. He Actually,
Chris:
content OS thing recently.
Michael:
But is that for LinkedIn?
Chris:
I think it's across all social media platforms here. It was quite quite good. It's very short. It's quite good, though.
Michael:
But he's got some sensible stuff. And, anyway, I can't whether it's him or someone else, is it the danger is you sort of sell a group session to all the clients you've got. And whereas I see unlike you, you sell I don't have a big email list. I don't have, you know so I probably need to work some of my free stuff to sort of I probably need to have a bit more of a larger presence because I could do group sessions, but I'm not sure who I would tell about because I don't have a my email list is just my email list is quite small. So and that's kinda been on purpose because I don't one of my big fears is as the sort of primary care situation in the in the UK gets worse, the device sort of advertise I'm sort of doing private general practice, but it's kind of at the price of coaching and it's pretty reasonable that I'll just get overwhelmed.
So I've kind of been a bit nervous about opening the floodgates which is a bit counterintuitive isn't it?
Chris:
Yeah. I thought
Michael:
I should. Yes. Yeah. No.
Chris:
And not everyone listening to this is just, like, take it easy. You know? Like, I know it's, like, really hard to find a GP in the UK who thinks like you do and has, you know, a scientific engineering approach to reviewing your data. But but still be sensitive to Michael. He's he's already got 50 clients.
Like, Like, he doesn't wanna be more.
Michael:
I know. I do want more clients, and I but I want the right ones. And I want the ones that and I think the other thing is because it's just me, I don't employ anyone. I just do everything. I probably need to take a few at least out of your sort of efficiency book, Chris.
But at the moment, so what I don't wanna do is create too much work until I've got the systems in place, which are much more in place now, sort of all the IT and the invoicing and the video work and all the sort of regulation. Because I, essentially, I, you know, want to meet all the because of potentially offering more of a medical service in the future, you have to be mindful of the GDPR. And so so all of that is kind of lined up and set up, you know, the labs there, the kits, the postage. I use Heads Up Health, which is I could get on with it quite well with the to sort of share data with clients.
Chris:
Yeah. And I have interviewed who is the founder of Heads Up.
Michael:
Dave. Dave.
Chris:
Yeah. Heads up. Dave Korsinski, is it? Is
Michael:
that right? Yeah. So I've done some work with them to sort of make get the lab results into that platform. Interesting. And I
Chris:
think and you like that platform then, obviously?
Michael:
Yeah. I mean, I no platform is perfect, is it? And, you know, it's it's a big project they're taking on. But it's working. It's and it's getting each month that goes by, they add something, and it gets better.
And I don't want to suddenly have 300 clients who I can't really, you know, and service. Yeah. And so, you know, what I wanted I wanna over deliver really. And the other thing is sort of future, You know, what if Heads Up Health just decide to pull a plug and they're not gonna do it anymore? So I have another clinical sys so I need to know that if one of my systems goes, I could probably survive with the systems I have left and don't let the clients down.
So I feel in a position now that I'm at that place. I'm sufficiently robust. Provided I stay well and healthy, I can deliver the service that the clients are paying for. So, yeah, so if people want a GP, as you described, or someone to analyze their blood results from a sort of medical point of view with some with as a kind of scientific and engineering background, then I have got a bit of space.
Chris:
Oh, that's fantastic. Okay then, Michael. So body mapping, I will link to it in the show notes. The URL is bodymappingclinic.com. Do you have any room for new clients?
And if so, what's the deal?
Michael:
So I do. I have room for another 50 probably clients. 50 to a 100 clients over the next couple of years. So the deal is you pay £99 for 6 months membership. And for that membership, you get access to a health and data portal powered by a company called Heads Up Health.
And you can link your Fitbits, and it's basically a sort of data collection kind of, website. You can, you know, geek out on your data collection if that's for you or not if not. But it's a way I can communicate with you. You can send me text messages. I can share coaching notes.
I can track we can link. We can sort of through APIs, we can link lots of Garmin, Fitbit, Apple Watches if you want to. And that's included in the £99. But you also get a 20 minute sort of onboarding call with me on video. And on that call we can arrange a blood test which is charged at £495.
And that includes the BloodSmart analysis and all the markers that Chris and MBT do, plus a few extras. And that also includes the postage and packaging to the lab, includes the phlebotomy, the blood draw, and it includes a 40 minute post result sort of review, 1 to 1, with myself, after which I provide a sort of brief consultation summary, plan of action, and supplement prescription that is kind of unique to your sort of nutritional needs. And that's all shared through the blood smart dashboard and the heads up health data portal. And that will recharge you. So as an offer for the for anyone listening to this podcast, you can have that £99 for free.
We'll share a code.
Chris:
The show notes?
Michael:
Show notes. Yeah. And that's so anyone listening to this, for as long as I'm still around at the companies, that code should be valid. So I won't put it in time then.
Chris:
Thank you.
Michael:
That's fine. So after that 6 months, your agent then charge if you wanna continue, it charges at £99 for 6 months. That's right. The only thing we probably all say, Chris, is probably not gonna be fee for US clients.
Chris:
Oh, so this is UK only. Okay.
Michael:
That's nice. Really. So Yeah.
Chris:
I know you're in the surf market. We often get people asking, okay. So where can I find this in the UK? We don't have Quest here. So that in itself is still very valuable.
Michael:
So we cover all of the UK, including Northern Ireland. If you can travel to Belfast from Southern Ireland, then you can be included. I've got some clients in South Africa, in Europe. And when they're traveling through London, they get the blood test when they're in London. So if you're coming through the UK, then you can be included.
But if you're not, then speak to Chris. Yeah. Because he could sort it out.
Chris:
That sounds fantastic. Thank you, Michael. So again, it's the body mapping clinic.com. I'll link to that in the show notes together with a code that you can use.
Michael:
So you have to go to join on the top of the website. There's an option that says join, and you just click on that and then just follow the instructions.
Chris:
Ah, yes. See it right now. I'm on it now. Okay. Well, Michael, this has been really great.
I really appreciate you taking the time of your busy work as a general practitioner and sharing some of your wisdom and fantastic offers. I really appreciate that. Thank you. I I can see you again in person very soon. We're definitely gonna be in Europe.
We'll be back in the UK this summer, so it'd be great to see you again then.
Michael:
Well, once the kids are through the schooling, we should get our travel We should come in.
Chris:
Come in California. Yeah. And Costa Rica.
Michael:
Costa Rica sounds good. Yeah. I've got a lot to get done when the kids have had their fun. But, anyway, Pat will bring them with us.
Chris:
Yeah. Sounds great. Good.
Michael:
Alright. Well, love to the family and and Likewise. And yeah. Alright. Take care, Chris.
Good to chat.
Chris:
Cheers. Now. Bye bye.
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